Breaking the Silence: Overcoming Toxic Masculinity and Suicide Loss

What happens when toxic masculinity prevents emotional openness and leads to unimaginable loss? In this heart-wrenching episode of Lift One Self, we sit down with Thomas Brown, an author, director, and mental health advocate who has dedicated his life to breaking mental health stigmas after losing his brother to suicide. Thomas shares his deeply personal journey and the profound lessons he's learned about self-care, the healing power of nature, and the importance of community in navigating grief. We begin with a grounding exercise designed to connect with your breath and release tension, setting a mindful tone for the powerful conversation that follows.

Thomas takes us on a cross-country adventure, vividly describing the beauty of sunsets and sunrises across America and how these moments offered him fresh perspectives on life's challenges. He opens up about the emotional complexities within his family, examining how societal expectations of masculinity contributed to his brother's struggles. The raw honesty of missed red flags, personal guilt, and coping mechanisms like cannabis use bring to light the generational gaps in understanding emotional needs and the devastating impact of toxic masculinity on family dynamics. Through Thomas's story, we explore how vulnerability and emotional openness can foster healing and growth.

Our discussion doesn't shy away from the difficult topics. We address the insensitivity of stigmatizing language around suicide, the historical roots of condemning those who take their own lives, and the detrimental effects of capitalism on mental well-being. Thomas shares his experiences of personal growth through questioning societal norms, challenging religious doctrines, and finding strength in both community and solitude. Highlighting the transformative power of art and creativity, we delve into the significance of self-awareness in personal development. Join us for a poignant and inspiring episode that encourages deep reflection and empathy in tackling mental health challenges.

Find out more about Thomas Brown here:
http://www.risephoenix.org/

#MentalHealth #SuicidePrevention #ToxicMasculinity

Chapters

• 0:00 Breaking Mental Health Stigmas Through Conversations
• 15:43 Navigating Loss and Family Dynamics
• 28:05 Challenging Mental Health Stigmas and Beliefs
• 35:17 Exploring Personal Growth Through Bravery
• 42:40 The Power of Self-Awareness

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast, where we break mental health stigmas through conversations. I'm your host, nat Nat, and we dive into topics about trauma and how it impacts the nervous system. Yet we don't just leave you there. We share insights and tools of self-care, meditation and growth that help you be curious about your own biology your presence matters. Please like and subscribe to our podcast and growth that help you be curious about your own biology. Your presence matters. Please like and subscribe to our podcast. Help our community grow. Let's get into this. Oh, and please remember to give a comment to yourself. Welcome to the Lift my Sex Podcast. I'm Kat Mac, your host, and I have a very special guest, thomas. So, thomas, would you be gracious enough to?

Speaker 2: 0:52

introduce yourself to the listeners and to myself, because I don't know everything about you. Alright, yeah, my name is Thomas Brown. I am a author, a director, podcaster and mental health advocate. I just recently I lost my brother to suicide in 2020. Sorry, I lost my brother to suicide in 2001. Thank you, right now I'm just kind of uh trying to promote that book. I've been, I've had a podcast that's. I have two podcasts, one's kind of on hold, it's called Inner Monologue. For about six years, I was creating a platform to promote other people and their story and their journey, and I'm really excited about it. It's really really nice, your baby your baby.

Speaker 3: 2:29

So I have many questions to ask you and one of the questions I have many questions also that I hope I'll ask you yeah, before that, will you join me in a breath so that we can grab our thoughts and sink our breaths in our hearts? And, as you always hear, safety first. So I'm going to ask Thomas and myself to close our eyes. Yet most people, while they're listening to a podcast, they're driving, so please don't close your eyes. I want you to be safe. Yet all the other prompts you're able to follow. So, um, please get comfortable in your seat and you're going to gently close your eyes and you're going to begin breathing in and out through your nose and you're going to bring your awareness to watching your breath go in and out through your nose. You're not going to try and control your breath, just going to let the awareness watch the rhythm of your breath and allow it to guide you in your body.

Speaker 3: 3:40

By now, there's probably some sensations and feelings coming up. It's okay, let them arise. You're safe to feel. You're safe to let go. Surrender the need to control, release the need to resist and just be, be with your breath, drop deeper into your body. There's probably some thoughts or to-do lists that may have come up in your mind. That's okay. Gently, bring your awareness back to your breath, creating space between your awareness and those thoughts and going deeper into the body. Staying with the breath, those thoughts may have popped back up. Bringing your awareness back to your breath, creating more space between the awareness and the thoughts and going deeper into your body now, while still staying with your breath, at your own time and at your own pace. You're going to gently open your eyes while staying with your breath. How's your heart doing?

Speaker 3: 5:21

outside of the caffeine I had about an hour ago pretty good, and I know uh going into stillness when uh, all that agitation, it's like, well, okay, yeah, let's, let's rock and roll with that. Um, we are in a time difference, so my time right now is going on 7 pm. What time is it for you?

Speaker 3: 5:42

so going on four yeah, um, so I'm presently watching the sunset, which I was just going in awe before we started recording, and I was telling thomas how I use that as a grounding method for myself. To you know, um, release whatever is constricted in my body and allow there to be an openness and a vastness, to go beyond my little, small narrative and be in the bigness of the universe and everything that, you know, I don't have control over yet takes very well care of me. So I am the sun and the moon. I am the sun and the moon I chase after.

Speaker 2: 6:24

I'm a big sunrise and sunset person. You know, if we talk a little bit about the bicycle adventure, I went through 21 states on that journey. A few years earlier I walked across the country with a group of people and went through 13 states on that adventure and I got to tell you you, I love an arizona sunset. There's something about that desert sunset where, or sunrise where there's just not a lot of obstruction, a lot of wide open space with beautiful mountains in the background and just a spectacular sky.

Speaker 2: 7:01

So yeah, I guess that's going to be on my bucket list it's crazy too, because I don't like arizona, but like I love our sunsets and sunrises, yeah um, you know it's.

Speaker 3: 7:16

It's fascinating too how the sun looks so different depending on where you're standing on this earth. Yeah, perspective, yeah, some places, like you know, most times it's just an average size here.

Speaker 3: 7:33

Yet there's been times where the sun is setting here and it reminds me of those star wars blood red sunsets and it's like I'm in star wars, like, oh my gosh yeah, and it's totally huge and I'm like but I'm not in the caribbean, because in the caribbean you see it so big, yet sometimes for some reason, just that opening, it's like, wow, I'm blessed to be able to see it. Yet usually I see it only this way. Yet the more you travel, you see, depending on where you are in the earth, the sun and the perspective of it is so different and it's invigorating because then it shows you in your own life. You can view things from different perspectives. It might be the same thing, yet if you open yourself up, you can see different ways about it and different shades and different textures. Before we started, you spoke about your brother, so I would like to know his name.

Speaker 2: 8:31

His name's Mark Brown. Mark Brown, he was six years older than me. He died three weeks before his 30th birthday and it was about three and a half weeks before nine 11. So I remember that like vividly, is like the world seemed to be falling apart, especially here in the States. My world had already had like a massive blow to it. So you know, there was kind of like a selfishness and ego to to my pain of like. Now everybody else can feel as shitty as I am. You know it's an absurd thought to have, but when you're in the midst of trauma there's nothing logical about those emotions.

Speaker 3: 9:22

Not at all, not at all, not at all. And I think you know, when you learn more about trauma, it's not avoiding those dense emotions, it's actually asking it what is the information allowing it to have some expression? Yet it feels very uncomfortable because they're very overwhelming and there's some authentic emotions that we've probably never even were able to feel at one point. So now you're interacting with something that you don't even have the verbiage or the tools to process and not let it hijack your behavior or shut you down. Yet you do have to disassociate, you do have to be messy through this whole process.

Speaker 2: 10:03

There is no perfection in that kind of grief yeah, yeah, and I would also say that, like the, the spectrum of emotions is so vast that we probably have a lot more emotions than we have words to describe them, and when you have an inability to articulate something, that only adds to the frustration.

Speaker 3: 10:23

Exactly Cause now you know, you go through an experience and you understand it, and then when somebody gives some language to it, you're like that's it.

Speaker 2: 10:33

Yeah, oh my.

Speaker 3: 10:33

God, I have somebody can see me and I can kind of like relate with it outside of my mind and I'm not crazy and I'm not this and I'm not like, oh my gosh. Somebody else knows what this feels like or can give context to it, but it's such a liberating thing when you can finally give verbiage to an experience and also share it with somebody else that they can relate or understand it in their capacity. Like all of our experiences are very individual, yet there's a lot of similarities to what we are experiencing yeah, and I often say, like you know, when, when there isn't a word to describe it.

Speaker 2: 11:15

That's where poetry comes from yeah of being able to, like, describe your feeling through a metaphor yeah like usually, like, usually, sometimes. That is what hits me the most is when somebody can describe an emotional feeling through poetic metaphor, that usually hits me the hardest. I'm like, damn yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 11:43

Now I have a question about mark in his life. Was there any signs of his mental health or suicidal ideation, or any depression or any insight? Did he share any of the darkness so?

Speaker 2: 12:01

in hindsight, like at the time no, this is 2001. Know, I was always, like, really open with my emotions. I was a very sensitive person and I had no problem uh, saying like, hey, I'm sad, I'm confused, blah, blah, and even crying, um, when I was feeling overwhelmed. But I never had a sense of uh, of like, oh, maybe I need a therapist. You know, I got my friends and I'll talk to them. So, despite my openness, I was still an outlier.

Speaker 2: 12:33

You know, mental health was something that we just didn't discuss and I think when it comes to like, mental health issues, especially back then, it's something that you can't see, especially back then, it's something that you can't see. And if I, if, if I can't see it and I can't describe it, then you can't see it. So you might not take me seriously, but if I had a broken arm, you'd have more sympathy for me. So I think my brother was, first of all, he was his vice, was he? He was a, uh, his vice was women.

Speaker 2: 13:03

He was hurt very early on, like right after high school. He was hurt in a relationship, um, and he just vowed he would never let a woman make him feel that way again. And I couldn't even tell you the responsible factors of that relationship that went sour. It's just he had a negative reaction to it, and so he became a womanizer, and for about close to 10 years he had two women that were, uh, one was his heart, one was his trophy Uh, unfortunately for me, one of them was somebody that I'd been friends with since like grade school, and we had now graduated high school, and the other one was my boss. So I didn't want to be a part of that, and I was smack dab in the middle. In order to be a really good at something somewhat nefarious such as womanizing and having multiple partners without them knowing, in order to sell a story, you got to believe a story. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 14:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:06

So, besides those two women, my brother had other conquests you know what he would describe as conquests on the side to go with that. So he was just. If you didn't care about the low character of that behavior, you could be in awe at his. At the web he was able to weave. You know, he was really good at it. And all that being said with that, when those those relationships ended, they weren't they weren't by his intentions and they both ended at the same time. And so his house of cards came crumbling down and he couldn't handle it and instead of telling people that he was sad, he was upset, he was frightened, he was scared. He told people that he had cancer. So he created another story in order to cope with the pain that he was feeling.

Speaker 2: 15:05

Um, in in hindsight, that's a big red flag. You know, I was at the time I was 23, getting ready to turn 24, and I was a confused young man. At that time. Um and my brother had a lot more power in the family dynamic than I really respected that he had, you know. So I was kind of like. Once again, I was the outlier with how I expressed myself emotionally amongst my peers and my family, and I was also an outlier of my family, I was the black sheep of my family. So, like in hindsight, that was a huge, huge, huge, huge red flag of just not being able to be honest and open.

Speaker 2: 15:52

And I would say that, like his view of what a strong, you know, man is and how he emotionally abused these women for his own, for his own you know carnal lusts and desires yeah, and he was soothing his pain yeah, yeah, yeah, that, um, I think that that idea that that one small trait of toxic masculinity, uh, the very idea of what it, that idea of what it is to be a man was, eventually to me was the thing that killed him. Yeah, like, if, if the suicide was, you know, was, was the symptom of a, of a deeper wound that he was unable to uh, to, um, to deal with and and process. So, yeah, to answer your question, like at that time, uh, I, I didn't see the red flags, you know, I didn't think that my brother was capable of that, because he was so bombastic, he was a singer, he had a lot of charisma, you know, and it was just something that I would have never conceived of. You know, I'd never had an experience like that before either.

Speaker 3: 17:19

So that's probably why and the masks that people put on they don't allow you to see the vulnerability. And the mask that people put on they don't allow you to see the vulnerability. So that mask he put on it was armament and there's no way that you're going to see the vulnerability and the pain and the wounding that's going on internally.

Speaker 2: 17:44

How did you feel guilt in your process of grief? I didn't. To be honest with you, my brother and I were. I liked to smoke pot at that age. I was a big cannabis user, really into like experimentation and seeing like where I could put my mind to like experimentation and seeing like where I could put my mind Um. It was a little reckless because you know, I wasn't. I didn't have like the emotional fortitude that one would need, uh, with psychedelics at that time period and I didn't have anybody to guide me. But I really liked cannabis and it really it. It helped kind of deal with the um, not with the emotions, but with like the physical um reaction that I would have to emotions if that makes any sense, yeah, of course so like yeah, yeah it just I would still feel them.

Speaker 2: 18:41

But I would just like to help me, like, calm down a little bit. Um, he didn't like that I smoked pot and I didn't like that he was a womanizer. But we both worked for the same organization at the time and I was just like, look man, I just don't want to be a part of your story in that capacity. Like, just keep me out of it. We can still be brothers, we could still like hang out. Just, I don't, I don't want to be involved. And to him that was betrayal. So he, he kind of tarnished my name at the time within the uh organization that we worked in and uh, so we had a massive falling out and we didn't talk, and it wasn't until his relationships were over, and this is probably like three years after. You know, once we kind of deviated from each other is when we started to come back together. So I'm grateful more than anything that we still had that we had the time left that we had.

Speaker 2: 19:42

I remember one night in particular you know he was always against weed and he came over. I was house sitting for somebody and he came over, and we were always big movie buffs as well, and you know, star Wars was one of our jams and he's like, hey, I want to come over and smoke weed with you. And I was like, all right, cool, come on over. And we got high and then we watched Empire Strikes Back and just to watch him speaking of perspective, his perspective had been altered in a way that was super novel to him, time and um, we just had this like like very beautiful brotherly experience together that we hadn't had in years, and it's one of the things that I will actually cherish the most.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Um, I had a little bit of anger with him, but it didn't last, it didn't linger very much after that. It was more of just like a sadness that he was gone. And my brother was a golden boy. My parents knew that he was, he was a womanizer, but he was there first and he was a golden boy. And you know, my parents, they, they, we never wanted for anything. There was food on the table, there was a roof above our head, there was, you know, uh, clothes on our backs, um, and, and they taught us a lot about compassion and accepting the differences of others. And those are lessons. I'm so grateful that I got from them. But outside of that, there, there wasn't this like profound wizard, sorceress, like wisdom. You know, they were simple people from a simple time, and when I say simple time, I mean small town, limited technology, and they were raising these two boys in the midst of an explosion of technology in the late seventies and 80s and into the 90s.

Speaker 2: 21:56

So they just yeah, they just didn't have that understanding, while we were the ones that were like learning it as it was coming up, so just very like limited capacity. I'm very grateful for the compassion and empathy that they gave to us, but there was something in me that needed a little bit more and I think that's where, like the drug experimentation kind of came from. Um, but I was more concerned with them after my brother's death. Like they, even though I had, I was not prepared as a 24 year old lost person that had no self-confidence and uh was completely codependent on the worst types of people. Um, I I was more concerned with them. Like I remember knowing that my brother had died but not knowing how he had died, and having to being told to meet my parents at the social services department, which was connected to the same building that I worked at at that time, wondering what was going on, knowing that my it had to do with my brother, that he was dead.

Speaker 2: 23:05

I hadn't been given that confirmation, I just knew um and then, like trying to call my dad and then hearing like this broken, weeping adult sound creep up from behind me while I'm like leaving a voice message for him and I turn around, it's my dad. He's never been the same. He's never been the same. And we just had my brother's 23rd anniversary. He's never been the same. And you know my brother's 23rd anniversary, uh, he's. He's never been the same. Um, and you know, I don't have children. I don't plan on having children. I feel like my father is now my child Cause my mom passed away about 16 months ago and I'm his caretaker. Like he can live on his own, but like I still have to. Like I manage his life.

Speaker 1: 23:50

You know, I was like I never.

Speaker 2: 23:52

I never wanted children. Now I got a 78 year old toddler. I don't have to worry about him sticking thing into electrical sockets or wandering off.

Speaker 2: 24:04

So I'm good, I'm good right now, Um, but it's still like like having the responsibility of another life. I just, you know, outside of a pet, I never have had that and I didn't want to have children and I still don't want to have children, so that was just always like. My parents were my focus, and so I don't think I had time Like my. I got over my anger pretty quick and I didn't have time for to to feel guilty about anything. That's. That's a and that's a different story from what other people, some people like that's all they have is guilt. You know, and I, you know, and you know I don't, I don't have that story, but I still try to remind people. Is that like? You know you, if somebody has it in their mind to do that, they're gonna find a way.

Speaker 3: 24:58

Yeah, it's beyond their control because our biology to actually you know um die by mental health, it takes a lot of strength and courage because your biology doesn't want to die it resists, like yeah like be apprehensive. It viscerally pull you back, all these kind of things. So to be able to override that. That's something of a very deep darkness that you don't have access to your behavior.

Speaker 2: 25:28

Also, I know that I was gonna say yeah, and not only that, but like um it's, it's from my experience and all the stories that I've heard it's more of. I just want the pain to end.

Speaker 3: 25:47

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2: 25:48

I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to. I don't want to leave this place. I just want the pain to end.

Speaker 3: 25:59

And, uh, that's understandable, Of course, of course, and that's why you know, when people have this narrative, I really loathe when I'm hearing the religion and hell and that the person isn't saved, and then the family members are all and I'm like where are you causing more pain and suffering for those that are still living with this and who are you to cast judgment on someone that you don't even know the depths of pain that they were having to deal with day in and day out?

Speaker 3: 26:29

like if you haven't experienced a really dysregulated nervous system, you have no idea what kind of hell is going on in someone's mind all the time and how viscerally and physically painful that is, and no escape from it, like there's nowhere to escape because it's inside you.

Speaker 2: 26:47

I mentioned something in my book. So in like the suicide law survivors community, they kind of create their own rules and their own reasoning for it and I, as I've always been an outlier, I don't look like it. I, my meat suit has me looking, you know, heterosexual, white male, like like, kind of like, won the lottery for meat suits. Um, but like I still like my mind and how I look at things, I feel like puts me once I open up my mouth and I and I lay out my thoughts, like that kind of like puts me against a lot of other people that look like they should be my peers. But in that community, like I always hear this gripe about, you can't use the word commit, you can't use the word committed and I'm just like man. That's a. That's a dumb semantical argument and I've seen, I used to.

Speaker 2: 27:42

I used to lead support groups after my bike ride. When I came back, I led support groups for people who lost loved ones to suicide and that's a pretty intense room where you're helping to manage egos and create a safe space, like what you're doing. And I saw in my training, like somebody who's brand new to it use the word committed and somebody else would you know. A few years out and they're like we don't use that word. I'm just like.

Speaker 2: 28:05

There are people out there that will say that my loved one is burning in hell, or they'll say that my loved one was a coward, and that's a level of bullshit that people don't need to deal with when they've lost someone to suicide. Why are you going to create strife within our own community by telling people what language they are allowed and not allowed to use when talking about? So I, I still like you know people like we say die by, and I'm like you say whatever you want. I lost my brother to suicide. You're not going to tell me I can't use the word committed, all right, uh, I just like it. To me it's a semantical argument that is a waste of energy when there's actual people that we should be concerned with, and that's what you brought up the people that say like they're cowards or they're burning in hell.

Speaker 3: 29:16

So sorry, that's just one of my soapbox. Poured it in someone's wound by saying this stuff Just because you have a belief system. You don't even have the empathy to be a decent human being, to keep your mouth shut about whatever you may believe and just hold space for this person that's in pain that seems to be a problem amongst of, from what I can tell, first worlds all around the world.

Speaker 2: 29:44

I can't speak for any other, that's why I just I'm, I'm speaking for the one, the world that I, I live in, you know yeah it's just, it's just, it's wild.

Speaker 3: 29:54

Yeah, and I'm I'm mindful because you know, I've known some people, even my neighbor, like during COVID, his nephew had died by suicide and he came to me and he asked me like do you think he's gone to heaven? I'm like, of course he is. I'm like like, of course, and he's needing validation because he's rumbling with it, as a catholic man that well, my belief has it that if anybody that dies by suicide is gone straight to hell, and it's like no, no, like your, your nephew was in a lot of pain and that is why he did what he had like he had to do for himself.

Speaker 2: 30:35

And it's funny too is that, like there's a, there's a gentleman that I met. His name's Frank Campbell and he's like, he's one of the activists. He's a thanatologist and a suicidologist, so means a study of death and suicide, of death and suicide, and he's a really big name here in the States for helping to create the community of, of, of, of support groups for people to like to talk to. And he gave us a little history lesson of how that even became a thing. You know, and it all happened happened back in Europe during the Middle Ages of where, because life was so hard for the common peasant man, there was a lot of rash of suicides. And when you have a man back in that time period killing themselves, well, you're losing taxation and you're losing work.

Speaker 2: 31:40

So the state went to the church and was like, how do we deal with this? And it was pretty much decided then that like, well, we won't allow those people to, not only will we not allow them to be buried in the church, we won't allow them to be buried in the town and we will look down on the other family members who are still alive. So you know, it just blows my mind of you know people, don't my mind of you know, people don't, and that's my big beef with the world in which you know I'm a part of. Now, here in, like a first world country like the, like the states, um, again, and I, I bring that up because I can't speak for another, another nation, because I'm not a part of that nation. So, um, if this resonates with you wherever you're at, like you know, run with it.

Speaker 2: 32:34

But I, I feel like there's such like a lack of awareness and and and with awareness, the lack of self-awareness, lack of understanding of why do I believe the things that I believe, where do they come from? And you know that that there's no real curiosity to dig deeper into the story of who I am. And when I say the story of who I am, who am I, outside of every single influence that has been vying to control my view of reality. Family story, uh, you know the religion in which you were raised, um, the, um, the, the nation that you were, the education, the political system, uh, just like, who am I at its core? And I think, I think, for me, my, my kind of philosophy, or my belief system, is that not knowing who we truly are? And and the world is going to tell you who you are, and if that goes against your nature, and even though you don't even know what your nature is, is that that's? That's a um, that's a recipe for emotional and spiritual catastrophe.

Speaker 3: 33:54

Very much so, very, very much so. And we're seeing a lot of that with people. As you said, at a certain point there were so many suicides and right now, the way the economy and the way humans are treating each other, it's almost like we're going through another kind of plague with mental health, because just the way humans are treating each other that we you know, the capitalism has really just mesmerized people that the materialistic world is much more important than being a decent human being to another human being and seeing that life is so valuable and really just treating people like they're indispensable and that they have no value. If you have nothing to contribute towards this capitalism part, you aren't worthy of being anywhere in this realm or whatnot. And I think you know that's the reason why I created this podcast is to remove the stigmas around mental health and that people had a space where they could hear different modalities of how they're going to engage with mental health and find the courage to do that critical thinking, to question things. Like I was a hedonism and a disruptor.

Speaker 3: 35:20

I come from a Catholic religion and you know, as a girl I was always questioning the priests and questioning things, and my mother used to cringe and be like just shut up. But I was like, why do I? Why can't I touch Bible? Why does the priest only can touch Bible? And then I have to go through him to talk to God. That stuff doesn't make sense. So I'm thankful for the bravery that I had in myself to be like I'm not drinking your Kool-Aid this is not making sense to me and being able to question it. Did I get shunned? Did I get trauma from it? Of course, yeah. I think we have to hold the space for people to start questioning things for themselves and really start getting possession back of their mind, of their consciousness, of their awareness.

Speaker 2: 36:11

What, what possessed you to walk and bike for such um, so my cross the bear was always codependency, and I would. I was just so. I was so frightened and scared and uncertain with life and and what I was supposed to do and how to live it, um, that I would latch on to anybody that seemed to be good at pretending that they know, that they knew it was going on. So I had a lot of like toxic relationships and there was just something brewing within me. There was all these things that I always wanted to do. I knew what I wanted do. I didn't know how to do them, but I just didn't have the courage to go off on alone, on my you know. I was afraid that like, oh, if I go off and do this, then like I won't be around my friends and that's terrifying, not realizing that I would meet other people along the way. And finally I just got sick of it. There's, I had a what I call my hetero life mate, a friend since like second grade, and him and I were like living together. He went to a different high school and so we didn't have high school, but after we both graduated, we hung out all the time and it was a toxic relationship. And then I was in a intimate relationship with this woman that was also toxic, and I just knew that I needed to change. And then I was in a intimate relationship with this woman that was also toxic, and I just knew that I needed to change.

Speaker 2: 37:43

And my parents, um, in 2006, like they had been part of this very, very, very progressive church Um, very progressive, uh, one step below Unitarian. They still consider themselves to be Christian, uh, but they were Open and affirming to other sexual orientation. They believe that there is more than One path in the Christian path to Connecting with God. They believe that we should take care of our brothers and Sisters. So they're big into social justice. They thought we should take care of the planet. They believe that secular art Was just as powerful as scripture.

Speaker 2: 38:13

So I was just digging on them, I dug the entire platform, and so I was like, hey, I'll walk with you guys. And there was a filmmaker that was following them and he was all by himself and he needed an assistant. So they were like, hey, instead of just being a walker, do you want to like? We know that you're interested in film Would you like to be the production assistant? Which pretty much meant I had to do everything. I shot, I recorded audio, I did some video editing, I did a lot of stuff and plus I walked backwards a lot while I was interviewing the walkers as they were walking forward.

Speaker 2: 38:50

So it was just kind of like theology on the road and film school on the road and it was the really kind of like the first steps of me disassociating myself from some of those toxic traits. When I was done with the walk, I was still in that intimate relationship with a woman that was like horrible and I still didn't have a therapist. And I came back from that, I went into film school and I was having the growing pains of like loneliness. You know, I'm not around, I'm not going to. I'm not going to because I'm lonely, I'm not going to just jump into every toxic relationship, even though I was still in an intimate one that was toxic. But I just I was starting to make those steps and I finally got sick of that relationship and I knew that I needed change. And so in 2008, I found myself in a therapist's office and and she really helped me tear the onion of my consciousness and my awareness apart, and it really helped me. And that's when, you know, two years later I was finally out of that relationship.

Speaker 2: 39:57

I met, uh, this guy, zach, who had also lost his brother to suicide, and in the summer of 2010, we had this conversation and talked about doing this bike ride. I was really inspired by that walk and I know how much it changed me and I, I, I know what it did for me. It's one thing about, like it's always great to have a community, especially a positive one, but it's also good to step away from your community, you know, because we, whether we are aware of it or not, there's some authorship that our community has of our own story, and I think it's important to kind of like separate yourself from that so that you can see who you are, even outside of your community, so that you can play more of the author of your own, of your own narrative and get a little bit of extra perspective of who you are. Um, and I knew all that from the and I just knew that, like, this bike ride would be something else. Because the walk, I was inspired by the message. I, I believed in the message and I supported the message, but it was somebody else's message, you know. So that was my first step. So I, when we decided to do the bike ride. This was my opportunity to share my message.

Speaker 2: 41:22

Like suicide awareness and mental health, one of the tools in which I use for awareness, social awareness, spatial awareness and self-awareness is art and creativity and how either being a witness to beautiful art helps me process, or dabbling with my own creative uh um ability, uh, and and and making something that's my own, whether it's good or not, uh that, how much that helps me in my process.

Speaker 2: 41:59

So I just knew that I needed to do something and, in a way, like the bike ride itself was its own piece of art um that I was able to to share with the world. And the book is kind of like the next step of that. But I just, I just I felt a calling, it was inside of me. And when you feel that when it starts, when it when it's like just a scream that you can't get rid of, you gotta to constantly. You got to go down that path and and explore it and see where it will take you Not really have any expectation of where you're going to end up, but just kind of be open to the process and the experience.

Speaker 3: 42:40

I want to bring you into a reflective question. I want to ask you to bring your awareness right now and go back to your 18-year-old self, and you have three words to tell your 18-year-old self to bring you to the journey to right now. What would those three words be?

Speaker 2: 43:01

I'll do it in two Know thyself. I mean, to me, self-awareness is the only game in town. Spirituality and and and and you know the different tools that we can, we can, put in our toolbox is they're? They're just that. They're tools that one uses to have a better understanding of who they are. But I think they need to be that. You need to have the intention that this is a tool that I'm using to get inside of myself, to understand myself, the way in which I react, why do I respond? Why does my body do this? Why? Why do I immediately go here when in certain, uh, in the presence of, of certain people, or when experiencing something? That is the only game in town.

Speaker 2: 43:59

I feel like self-awareness one. If you don't know who you are we've already kind of discussed this the world is going to be telling you who you should be and that and if that and that nine at 99 out of 100 times is going to be in conflict with who you, what your foundation is, and you need to understand what that foundation is. And the other thing it's like. It's like when you're born, you you're given this map and there's a giant X on that map and it's got the treasure that you need. If you don't know who you are, you don't know where you're starting on that map. So self-awareness is the starting point of getting to that, that thing. And not only that, not only about self-awareness the the one of the things that I feel like I can shout this from on high is that, like there's no way I can sell you anything, there's no method in which I can sell you some not all tools work, do the same thing for the same for everybody. So part of the journey of self-awareness is you figuring out what tools work for you, Exactly what tools challenge you, why they challenge you. You know what I mean. So that's why, like, self-awareness is the only game in town.

Speaker 2: 45:22

I can't tell you how to go on the journey of self-awareness using the tools that I use for myself. I can say this is what I do and kind of give you a starting point of that. You can try. And if you try it, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but it leads you down the path of, like, finding the other tools. But you need to figure out, like your function, what works for you and and like so to me it's like that's the only game in town. We have one job you can do. You can be a professional alienator and alienate everybody in your life, but you still got to deal with one person and that's you. So figure that person out.

Speaker 3: 46:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:11

And to me, I feel like my brother had a complete lack of self-awareness and that's eventually what killed him. It's like if you were completely detached from yourself. It can send you down a spiral.

Speaker 1: 46:28

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:30

And you know that spirals also. I'm not going to say that everybody, if you don't know who you are, you're going to end up taking your life. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that like it could lead you to a spiral. I see I've met a lot of people that have, you know, been masters of uh crafts in their life and they've amounted masses of wealth, but they come to a point where they're like all of this started because this is what the world told me I was supposed to do, and even though I've I've climbed these mountains and jumped over these hurdles, I'm depressed because they have no sense of self, of who they are yeah, they're trying to look for, yeah, 18 year old me yeah know thyself, yeah

Speaker 3: 47:20

and it's true yeah, because you know time is a tool's, not a toy. And then we come to realize, like, how much time we gave to the narratives of other people that we didn't take the stand in the permission of what is it that you want to create in this world? Who is it that you want to be in this world? Because a lot of people don't think they can give themselves permission for that. It's always the validation and permission side of them. Um, so once you access that, you understand like, oh my gosh, I have to go inward I gotta stop.

Speaker 3: 47:58

Uh, yet that's, you know, for everybody to finally go through their portal to really understand, and that's why you know it was. I was a little hesitant when I took the direction of starting meditations with each podcast. Yet I was like I know the benefit of being in the breath and starting to recognize, like you're, not your thoughts and to create that space. So when you try to explain the observer and the awareness to people, they're like I don't know what you're talking about. And then the wrong definition that people have about meditation, that it's going to quiet your mind and you're not going to have any thoughts, and I'm like, yeah, everybody's got the monkey with the, with the cans, um, but I think, like what's?

Speaker 2: 48:43

I mean that's usually like a body meditation, breath meditation is usually like what I recommend too, because it's like the reason why I give that is because, hey, it's going to, it's going to help you start a relationship with your own body. Yeah, which is very very good in the realm of yeah, but it's also like good in the realm of like awareness, because our brains are tricksters.

Speaker 2: 49:15

You know, I may, my, my, I, I will, I, my brain will negotiate some kind and try to, like, create a reality inside, uh, to protect me from something, but my body's not going to. My body is going to speak first and then my brain has to catch up to it. Yeah, exactly, you know what I mean. I always say that, using the breath to get in touch with your body is amazing.

Speaker 3: 49:41

That's why it's like. And when people are like, when I give the prompt that there's some feelings or sensations coming up and people are like. When I, you know, give the prompt that there's some feelings or sensations coming up, and people are like how'd you know? And I'm like, because we numb, we stay in our head. We don't want to hear any bodies trying to tell us I don't want to feel it, don't want to see, I don't want to. I would rather be in the BS of the illusion, because there's also a part that you just want to go on autopilot. You don't want to do the work of self-awareness, that's being aware all the time, and it takes a lot of work to do that. Yeah, you can develop those tools and, on that note, I know many people want to know where they can find you, thomas. So can you let them know all your information and what you have to offer you?

Speaker 2: 50:28

let them know all your information and what you have to offer. Yeah, if you go to rise phoenixorg uh, that is, that's going to have all the socials Uh, it's going to have the links to to my podcast. The podcast channel is rise, frequency, um, but I have two different shows on there. I have like over 300 conversations with other people that I gave platforms to Um and I think a lot of those are still relevant right now. Another show on that is called stages, where it's just like an audio diary. I started like a few months after my mom died and sometimes it's really sad stuff and sometimes it's me laughing in the face of sadness and it's just um, you know, uh, just it's just absurd stuff. But I think that laughter to me is like my greatest tool for for medicine.

Speaker 2: 51:18

Um but, yeah, ricephoenixorg, that's where you. There was also a link there for my book, uh, 2012, a bicycle odyssey Um, and you can find out what, what, what the hell is that turtle doing there? What does that mean? Um, but I'm very proud of that. I always tell people that you know there's some threads in there. If you lost somebody to suicide, there's a thread for you. Uh, if you like the beat Nick lifestyle of life on the road, there's a thread in there for you. If you appreciate some type of like mystical you know living as Mark Maron would say when life confounds me, I'll go mystical there's a thread in there for you. And if you're a big nerd and you like pop culture, there's a thread in there for you. So, and if you like all four of those, hey, this is the book for you. If you order one, please, and you like it. If you like it, give it to a friend.

Speaker 3: 52:16

Yes, and also leave reviews. Leave those reviews on those websites because it helps other people, you know, get the information that they needed. Most of us are always looking at reviews to see is it worth reading, because everybody will sell whatever, yet when we hear that other people benefited from it. So leave those reviews also. It really helps to build that community and that awareness and those conversations for other people.

Speaker 3: 52:47

I want to thank you tremendously for, you know, being here and actually really doing the alchemy in your life. You've taken those impurities and you've turned them into gold, and you didn't just keep the gold for yourself. You've shared it with so many people. So thank you for that warrior work that you continuously keep doing and sharing with other people. It is like I'm in awe and I'm inspired and I've learned some things through this conversation. So I want to really thank you. Thank mark, in this space, thank your mother also, because I am um one that when people transition, it's the other side of love and if we go through our pain, then we can open up and feel their presence and feel the communication. Yet you have to be able to really feel the depths of the pain to be able to open up that heart to. You know, feel that. So I want to thank them for being in this conversation with us and empowering it, and you know, for those listeners that you know this touched you.

Speaker 3: 53:52

If at any time there was an inclination that, oh, like he's saying something or it's touching me, reach out to Thomas. Don't second guess, don't try to I don't know, just click the link. All of his links will be in the show notes. So all you got to do is click that hyperlink and just reach out to him. As you heard in this conversation, this is the first time that we met and you see how open he has been and how gracious he has been in the dialogue. Just reach out to him. You know, when we're ready, the teacher appears and there's a lot of experience that Thomas has to offer to give you a guiding post to go with in yourself. So thank you again, thomas, for being here.

Speaker 2: 54:36

Thank you, I really appreciate you. I appreciate it, man.

Speaker 3: 54:39

I appreciate you. Please remember to be kind to yourself. Hey, you made it all the way here. I appreciate you and your time. If you found value in this conversation, please share it out. If there was somebody that popped into your mind, take action and share it out with them it possibly may not be them that will benefit.

Speaker 3: 55:02

It's that they know somebody that will benefit from listening to this conversation, that they know somebody that will benefit from listening to this conversation. So please take action and share out the podcast. You can find us on social media on Facebook, instagram and TikTok under Lift One. Self and if you want to inquire about the work that I do and the services that I provide to people, come over on my website, come into a discovery, call liftoneselfcom.

Speaker 1: 55:31

Until next time, please remember to be kind and gentle with yourself. You matter.