Parenting as a Spiritual Practice: Finding Beauty in Chaos

Discover how parenthood mirrors spiritual transformation in this soul-stirring conversation with Rabbi Alon Ferenci, whose journey from pulpit to counseling reveals profound insights about personal growth and healing. Join us on Lift One Self as we explore mindfulness, emotional intelligence, and the delicate balance of preserving childhood wonder while building authentic parent-child connections.

Rabbi Alon shares powerful strategies for:

• Transforming daily parenting challenges into opportunities for spiritual growth
• Using curiosity and compassion to break through defensive patterns
• Finding strength in vulnerability and faith during uncertain times
• Navigating the beautiful chaos of family life with presence and purpose

Through intimate stories and practical wisdom, we dive deep into how embracing both the joy and struggles of parenthood can lead to unexpected self-discovery. Whether you're a parent seeking deeper connection with your children or anyone interested in the intersection of spirituality and personal development, this episode offers valuable insights for your journey.

Perfect for parents, spiritual seekers, and anyone navigating life's major transitions. Listen now to discover how embracing life's chaos can reveal its hidden beauty.

Connect with Rabbi Alon Ferenci at
www.eclecticcleric.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Trauma and Transition With Rabbi Alon
• 12:27 Personal Growth Through Parenthood
• 20:41 Navigating Childhood Myths and Truths
• 35:11 Embracing Emotions and Authenticity
• 40:48 Exploring Faith and Self-Awareness
• 48:35 Spread the Word

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast, where we break mental health stigmas through conversations. I'm your host, nat Nat, and we dive into topics about trauma and how it impacts the nervous system. Yet we don't just leave you there. We share insights and tools of self-care, meditation and growth that help you be curious about your own biology. Your presence matters. Please like and subscribe to our podcast. Help our community grow. Let's get into this. Oh, and please remember to be kind to yourself. Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast. I'm your host, nat Nat, and as I mentioned in the previous podcast is that recently, as many of you know, natalie has transitioned to the other side of love, and these are my first podcasts since this new reality that I'm in right now, and I am graciously going to be spending this time with Rabbi Alon right now. So, rabbi Alon, would you be gracious enough to introduce yourself to the listeners and let us know a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:15

Absolutely. Thanks, natanat. My name is Alon Ferenczi. I grew up I was born not far from you in Rochester, new York, grew up south of Boston and Massachusetts. Now live in East Tennessee, knoxville. I was ordained as a rabbi in 2010, came here to work at a pulpit and about two years ago left the pulpit to focus on counseling, coaching artists and consulting to arts organizations. I'm married with four boys, which, yeah, the standard response is wow or oy or oh my, and it's often delightful. Chaos and mess and sometimes too much. I like to write. I'm learning to play drums. I am a modestly good soccer player, or I should say, as we've aged, I have not aged as poorly on the soccer field as my teammates, so I look better in comparison. I still play Dungeons and Dragons and I think that's a good. That's a good pricey of my life. I like to laugh. That would be. And dance.

Speaker 1: 2:26

Yeah, and before we started the podcast, you asked me how to address me, if it's Natalie or NatNat, and I said if you're playful, you'll call me by NatNat. Yeah, we'll see how much laughter.

Speaker 2: 2:38

We'll go back and forth. We'll go back and forth, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:40

Yeah, how much play we'll get into the dialogue Before we start. Would you be willing to join me in a two-minute mindful moment?

Speaker 2: 2:50

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:52

And for the listeners. As you always hear me, go on safety first. Most of you listen to a podcast while driving or needing your visual. So when I ask the rabbi and myself to close our eyes, please do not. Yet the other prompts you're able to follow through with us. So, rabbi, I'll ask you to get comfortable in your seating and, if it's safe to do so, I'm going to ask you to gently close your eyes and you're going to begin breathing in and out through your nose. And you're going to begin breathing in and out through your nose and you're going to bring your awareness to watching your breath go in and out through your nose.

Speaker 1: 3:33

You're not going to try and control your breath. You're just going to be aware of the rhythm of it, allowing it to guide you into your body. There may be some sensations or feelings coming up. That's okay. You're safe to feel. You're safe to let go, surrender the need to control, release the need to resist and just be, be with your breath, drop deeper into your body. Now, there may be some thoughts or memories that have popped up in your mind, and that's okay. Gently, bring your awareness back to your breath. Gently bring your awareness back to your breath, creating space between the awareness and the thoughts and dropping deeper into. Bring your awareness back to your breath, beginning again, creating even more space between the thoughts and the awareness and dropping even deeper into the body, allowing yourself to just be, be in your breath. Now, at your own time and at your own pace, you're going to gently open your eyes while staying with your breath. How's your heart doing?

Speaker 2: 5:27

That was very pleasant. I'm usually the one leading a meditation. It's been a while since I've been led and it's nice to have it on. I'm wearing headphones right now and so it really feels intimate. The sound texture was really positive, so it went right through, maybe a little slow and sluggish as a result, but I will try to answer your questions appropriately. That's very nice, thank you.

Speaker 1: 5:52

Thank you for allowing us to ground ourselves and to open our hearts, and slow and sluggish is the rhythm I like to be in, so that we can be honest and you know, once the emotions start, then it picks up the pace and there's some more texture and delight and everything else. I'm curious to know what had you commit into being a rabbi?

Speaker 2: 6:21

It's interesting because I've been asked this so many times. It's one of those things that's almost hard to explain because it feels so obvious to me. From a young age I was watching rabbis and thinking that's what I wanted to be that combination of gentleness, tenderness, wisdom, care. They were caring for me at difficult points in my life, and other Jewish educators and Jewish professionals. I did well in Jewish settings. I was comfortable, I was more open and knowledgeable in those settings, and so it was a trajectory that seemed likely.

Speaker 2: 7:01

I tried a few other things. First, I worked in the music business, I worked in international relations, and those are still things that are integrated in my life in other ways now. But going deeper into my people's practices and my own spiritual practice in a way, it wasn't so self-evident that that would happen, but it's. I'm certainly grateful for that time to kind of explore things deeply. I tend to be someone who tries a lot of things, not necessarily in a shallow way, but not in a very profound way Like I like to. I know how to play things on guitar, but I'm not a great guitarist. I know how to drum and how to act, but I'm not expert at anything, and so I guess it has been nice to have a deep reservoir of knowledge, and perhaps wisdom, about my own faith practice and to be able to share that from a place of, if not expertise then awareness.

Speaker 1: 8:01

What made you step away from the pulpit? What made you step?

Speaker 2: 8:06

away from the pulpit A lot of things. The short version is burnout. You know that was very common and shared among helping professions in the days of COVID, I think even before that I was. I don't like the word bored because bored tends to be a symptom of something else that's happening. I think people use bored too easily.

Speaker 2: 8:25

I think I was growing apart from the practice of my community. I think I needed to go on a different spiritual journey and I thought they could come with me and in the end they couldn't. I think I got a little tired of the mechanics of running a congregation in a nonprofit and the demands that puts on in terms of budget and mission and mission creep. I never stopped loving most of the people. That's the hardest and I always had a beautiful office and a nice experience and a great week. I missed that structure.

Speaker 2: 8:57

But I think I needed to go on a different journey and I needed to be with people who were more inherently willing to create. And there's a certain amount of in congregational life most churches, synagogues and, I imagine, mosques, and also in nonprofits of sustaining rather than continual reinvention, which is what I wanted, and artists are much more open to trying wacky things like writing a Western, you know. So that's been appealing to me and it's a return to certain roots of mine in the arts would you say that the pulpit was stunting some of your curiosity and creativity?

Speaker 2: 9:35

I would say that if no one from my pulpit were listening.

Speaker 1: 9:38

yes, a little, a little wary of saying that if anyone who's listening, but yes, I think sometimes structure only creates certain parameters, and curiosity needs to go beyond that and it really needs to go into the unknown and uncertainty. Yet structure needs to have things that are certain, which then there becomes a bit of a conflict. And, as you said, innovation. Then there becomes a bit of a conflict. And, as you said, innovation a lot of people say they want change, yet they're not really knowing what that looks like. And to be in the action of creativity and taking chances and risks.

Speaker 2: 10:15

And change involves loss. That was pointed out to me.

Speaker 1: 10:19

Yeah, yes, for sure A lot, and it's messy, there's mistakes.

Speaker 2: 10:23

And, I think, my kids. There was a moment I realized I think it was a Thanksgiving, maybe two or three years ago where I looked at my kids and I realized they don't think I'm an ambitious person and not like materially ambitious, but I'm willing to, or wanting to, try new and dangerous things and challenge myself. And that disappointed me, to think my kids because I had held a place of stability for them for their entire lives. I worked at one job, partly because that was not a model I had growing up that I thought my children would want and partly because I loved the job.

Speaker 2: 10:53

I don't want to deny that at all, but I did want my kids to see me taking adventures and doing something daring. That wasn't the main reason, but I remember having that thought, looking at one of my children thinking or maybe even saying out loud you don't think I'm ambitious, do you? And I was like daddy's, done incredible, crazy things in his life, just not during your life. Because I wanted to create stability for you. But I don't want you to not know that about me that sense of adventure and curiosity and creativity. I'm a weirdly curious person and curiosity and creativity.

Speaker 1: 11:27

I'm a weirdly curious person, as am I. I've always, Natalie, used to say I was into some weird things, but then, when she went through her journey, she's like now I understand it, I totally understand it. I still think it's kind of weird some of the stuff that you want to engage in. Yet I do appreciate it. I want to ask, now that you know you said you left the pulpit and some of the structure how has your parenting, has it changed in these two years?

Speaker 2: 11:58

Boy, I haven't thought about it. I mean, I'm definitely happier as a person and need less Prozac. I am more physically present and I don't know if that's always a good thing. Like I'm the one who does a lot more of the driving and a lot more of the doctor's appointments and a lot more of the bill paying just by virtue of working from home and having a more flexible job as my wife went back to her engineering profession. Has that made me a better parent or a different parent? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 12:27

The circumstances have changed and I certainly, like I'm around my kids whining and bickering much more than I would like to be, but I'm also there for them. I think, just by virtue of being there for them physically, it means I'm there for them in another way. You know, I'm almost always the one to pick them up from school and although my wife is a much better cook, I probably make more of the dinners now. I mean, she makes incredible meals and I make pancakes and hot dogs, but I think there's a still an awareness like dad's doing these things for us and setting the boundaries and being there. But you know, there's no way of replacing a mom, like there's no. Moms have a special role that she has and she's never going to lose. So I don't know if I've changed, except the circumstances have changed. So inevitably something has changed in the dynamic, but I can't quite name it yet, but I will think about it.

Speaker 1: 13:25

Have you learned anything new about yourself in the dynamic? But I can't quite name it yet, but I will think about it. Have you learned anything new about yourself?

Speaker 2: 13:29

in the two years, yes, and my wife early on, as I stepped out to have my own practice, she said, well, what if it doesn't work? And I think I knew then and I'm certain now whether it works in terms of finance and capacity. I've learned a lot. My theology, my belief, my sense of the world has changed dramatically. Yeah, I mean, I think even if I were to stop today, I would say that I'm kind of emotional about it.

Speaker 2: 13:58

In a weird way, I feel like the two greatest years of growth in my life were the Peace Corps.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Going to Central Africa and seeing people live radically different to how I had grown up and realizing what's common among humankind and what's different, and what their sufferings are and what their joys are different to ours was a time of explosive growth and I would say this is the next most time of explosive growth in my adulthood, absolutely the time. The next most time of explosive growth in my adulthood, absolutely trying not just, you know, not just changing what I think and believe and feel, but also even learning new skills like budgets and marketing and you know, and digital skills like conversing with people on podcasts or through a zoom call when I'm counseling them. Yeah, it's been a period of explosive growth, so much so that, like I someone pointed out to me and they're probably right I could never go back to a pulpit, at least as it was, which is kind of sad. I was very it's hard to leave a job you're good at and, candidly, I was probably pretty good at it, but it was time.

Speaker 1: 15:03

Yeah, new growth, yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:06

Yet I think you know, um, a dialogue that parents may not recognize is that sometimes we use our careers and work to avoid the whiny parts and the arguments of children because it dysregulates our nervous system.

Speaker 1: 15:21

Yet if we can lean into that and recognize, oh, they're revealing things within ourselves that we haven't really integrated, we haven't really processed within ourselves, that we see some of our own beliefs and what it should look like.

Speaker 1: 15:36

And you know, when I first learned meditation, they told me, you know, you have to create a quiet space in your house and go for 20 minutes and I was like I'm a solo parent to twin boys that are four. That's not working, like, no, well, they were five, sorry, they were five at the time. So I brought meditation to the couch while they were listening to TV and banging their trucks and fighting amongst each other, and I got to see how the nervous system wants to control and stop and thinks it knows the story, where I allowed my curiosity to let the story unfold without me interfering into it, which is a lot of work, when your nervous system is activated and all the energy is coming up is activated and all the energy is coming up. Yet when you can allow your curiosity to be untethered, there's such more profound in depth to seeing things in a much wider lens than just very narrow.

Speaker 2: 16:36

I found myself doing that over the Thanksgiving week being able to sit with my younger children and my nieces, who are of the same age, and let them run around all over each other and around me and just to enjoy that moment. I don't think I could do it for very long, but I remember an evening when I was really there and I do think something you hinted at. I think a lot of people becoming workaholics is about avoiding crises at home or in the personal life. Yeah, and then parenthood. I mean I think you know other explosive growth experiences are parenthood. They get demands, things of you and selflessness and compromise and flexibility and giving that are very hard, and I thought the pulpit did that too. I always would joke that it's not normal for someone to love 300 people, but part of the practice of the pulpit is expanding what you can love and who you can love and how many people you can love, and that was good.

Speaker 1: 17:32

But boy, parenthood, it's hard I define it as the highest spiritual practice you can learn about yourself, because your parents mirror things to you that if you're willing to lean in then you can discover things, or you can just project blame and it's their problem, it's not mine. Yet if you're willing to lean in and look at that mirror, there's such beauty. Yet it's recognizing the defense and coping mechanisms that you've created in your younger childhood that you know. To release and surrender those defense mechanisms takes a lot of warrior work. Yet it's not something a snap of like a miracle and it's all gone. It's like this is a nervous system that's been developed. So if you can lean in and have grace and radical compassion with yourself, that's the beauty of it.

Speaker 1: 18:24

It's not about having perfection, like, I think, sometimes the narrative of gentle parenting. It's going again where there's not supposed to be. Pain there's not supposed to be. You know we're going to break our connections. It's about how are you going to repair them Like you cannot be. We're not even able to stay connected with ourselves all the time. So sometimes people feel like, as parents, I should be connected with my child all the time and it's like it's not possible.

Speaker 2: 18:53

A few hours a week is plenty. A few hours a week is plenty.

Speaker 1: 18:57

Yeah, so it's about the repair and the honesty.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Yeah, I think also something you hinted at that I wish someone had taught me as a kid is if someone doesn't like you, it has a lot to do with them. It says a lot about them and likewise the things that vex you about your children like that's a lot about you. The child is much more innocent of that problem than you think You're seeing something in yourself or some unresolved problem you had in your own family of origin? Yeah, problem you had in your own family of origin. Yeah, I wish I knew, as a socially awkward kid, what I was triggering in other people, and not that it was me and needed to be ashamed of that. But the reactions we have of other people say a lot about ourselves.

Speaker 1: 19:43

Exactly, and our children I have. I'm going through it with one of the teachers of my twin boys and they're just disruptors, like they came onto this planet and they're like I'm disrupting everything. I am not comment, like it's not quote status. I am going to challenge every little rule, I'm going to challenge every kind of conformity, I'm going to be playful. So now I'm like, oh, and seeing their version to what the teacher wants, and it's like, okay, well, where do we find a middle ground in this? And I'm like, and in just educating them like, listen, like you're antagonizing someone, like I'm not getting any messages from any other teachers, but this one you've recognized, like you can you know, push, not, they don't push buttons, but you're getting this person to push their buttons and you know you're dysregulating them. So take some responsibility of not doing that. Just because you see something in someone doesn't mean that you are to activate that in the person.

Speaker 2: 20:41

How old are they now?

Speaker 1: 20:43

They're going to be 15 in February.

Speaker 2: 20:46

My oldest is coming up on 14. Yeah, it's an interesting time.

Speaker 1: 20:51

Oh, I have my. My oldest is going to be 30 in May, but twins are a different ballgame.

Speaker 2: 20:59

My sister has twin, twin girls. Yeah, it's. Having them staggered was a lot easier. I think they were never. They were never going through the same thing at the same time and fighting for their own identity.

Speaker 1: 21:11

yeah, yeah, so, um, and I I see in my mind where, oh well, the adult must be, um, the one that knows it all, and it's like, no, a lot of times children aren't listened to and adults can take things too seriously and just want it to be so rigid and structured that they're not even able to loosen up on things. So it's being able to listen to them and not just come down with the hammer and, oh no, no rule and authority, and it's like, and my part, my biggest thing that I work through in life is not to feel like I'm an inconvenience, where it's like okay, now that the twins are disrupting, I feel the part that feels like an inconvenience where it's like it's okay. Let's feel that and let's go beyond what is presented here. What are the emotions that are trying to surface that you didn't know how to engage with and not just project right away?

Speaker 2: 22:06

Does it mean to feel like an inconvenience? How does that play out with a teacher?

Speaker 1: 22:12

or a coworker. It's their emotional temperature that they feel, that I can see that their emotions are getting frustrated, okay, and that it drains out the energy, that that energy can go towards something else. Life is already challenging as it is, and so and being a teacher is like trench work, and so you're trying to contain all these different little personalities and then it's like, well, can you just do your part not to heavy the load? So that's what that feels like.

Speaker 2: 22:44

I think there's a lot of guilt and shame around being a parent too, like whenever we get an email from the school you know, so-and-so didn't wear their uniform today, or so-and-so said something mean to your child, or vice versa. It's like oh, other email. I feel terrible. But also there was something you said that made me think of a quote, and I'm going to misquote it, and it might be Einstein, it might be Julia Cameron that children are not just young adults. Adults are atrophied children. That energy and curiosity and drive and disruptiveness I like that idea. It's so powerful. And then the question with children is how do you help them regulate it so that it's appropriate, right, without crushing spirit? And there's also this question, as a person of faith, of how do you tell them stories about faith that they don't need to unlearn as adults?

Speaker 1: 23:32

Oh listen, I'm going to the whole thing of Santa Claus. I'm going to show you how my mind have been disruptors, okay, so I think five going on, six. And one of them told me, when he sees you, when you're sleeping and when you're awake, that that's not true, like there's not one man that's watching everybody, that's just your parents, like being able to see that and wanting you to behave so you can get the presence. So that's just a riddle that they're trying to tell the people. So then he's like the advocate I'm going to go to the school and tell all the children that's just a riddle that they're trying to tell the people. So then he's like the advocate, I'm going to go to the school and tell all the children that's and it doesn't exist, like this is just your parents.

Speaker 1: 24:14

Well, that was disrupting a lot of the students and his peers. And so then the teacher had to tell him like I understand your belief, and your belief is is okay, yet you can't place it on other people because it's disrupting them. They're allowed to believe what they want to believe. So there he started to learn too. I can't be a truth teller because I'm the one being punished for it and I'm not able to speak my truth because it's making other people upset and it's breaking the status quo. So then that started having him doubt authority, like you're telling me to like not say the truth and I'm getting punished for it, and how can I trust you? So I had to honor you know, support him in that, but also let him know like this is a big thing, like parents and all that, like they believe in this, yet you are correct in how you're seeing it.

Speaker 1: 25:08

And then his brother would be. You know what I believe in Santa. He's like don't do you, don't believe in no, you just want gifts. Stop with that stuff. You and I was like watching this while he was like no, no, I I believe in Santa. He's you just want gifts, and you know that.

Speaker 1: 25:28

So I presented it to them asking okay, well, now that you don't see Santa and you understand that it's me providing, do you want me to spend money all in Christmas where there's a bunch of gifts, or would you rather me space it out throughout the year so that we can do trips and everything else, or would you rather me space it out throughout the year so that we can do trips and everything else? And they chose the latter let's spend it. And so I gave them financial literacy. Yet the pushback that I got by many adults, and even my own mother like now she realizes now but she was like, oh, you're just the worst parent to be doing this. You're breaking their childhood and crushing their dreams. And I was like why do we have to create these lies?

Speaker 2: 26:11

I think within a year some other child would have said Santa Claus, it's always one kid who lets everyone know it's not real. And then everyone knows within about a year. If it wasn't your kid, it would have been someone else in the class within six to 12 months. There is a certain age of plausibility where you here it's lasting longer and longer.

Speaker 1: 26:30

How old can?

Speaker 2: 26:31

a kid, be that a 10-year-old thinks Santa Claus is real.

Speaker 1: 26:34

Some 10-year-olds, and that's the bubble that is created.

Speaker 2: 26:40

They're going to be very susceptible to some conspiracy theories later in life.

Speaker 1: 26:48

That's where I'm like 10 you're still, that's kind of hot like, but I'm like, I'm not. You know, I'm like, where are you helping to empower the critical thinking of your child? Um, yet I I always wondered why do we have to create these stories that are illogical and based on lies, when life is so magical already? There's things that we can create as traditions that are out of truth and faith.

Speaker 2: 27:16

Well, I would challenge some of this because I think we we and this goes to things you can tell your kids that you don't. They don't need to to unlearn. I'm trying to express to my kids the difference between fact and truth, and mythic structures have a very powerful organizing principle in our lives the way we understand self and the way we understand our purpose and the way we understand the nature of mortality. And the example I always give is I'd rather watch Casablanca than a World War II documentary. One is fact but the other is truth, and you can't. You can have unfact and untruth. Those are the same. But truth is different than fact.

Speaker 2: 27:59

And I think Santa Claus is a different thing. It's not even a faith proposition. It's just that's a fairy tale, legitimately just not intended to be a faith proposition. Or maybe it's based on some pagan ritual, as Easter is. But the idea of truth, narrative and artistic truth, matters a lot to me Because, as you've suggested, the world is full of wonder and beauty. There is something that is truthful, meaningful and significant about this world that transcends the limits of fact.

Speaker 2: 28:36

So the line I use you know someone like Jacob or Abraham in the Bible or Solomon, I don't think they existed as flesh and blood creatures and I think I'd meet them in heaven, like I think I will experience that. Those are real experiences, just like Rick and Elsa are real experiences in Casablanca. Those people, cafe American and Casablanca never existed. But it is a real experience. So I try to explain that to my kids, but it's hard. Maybe it maybe they're some of them are at an age now where they could understand what, but it's hard. Maybe some of them are at an age now where they could understand what I'm trying to share. But Santa Claus yeah, I don't think even Santa Claus counts as that kind of truth. Santa Claus is just a creative imagination that disempowers financial literacy and tells kids that their parents aren't responsible for the gifts in a way that's very destructive. Like mommy worked hard for your PlayStation, I had to take an extra shift for this Xbox.

Speaker 2: 29:35

I'm not telling you some man in a sled did it.

Speaker 1: 29:38

You should know that I made sacrifices, and I think you know these are things that I think we can change within our societal structures. And, as you say, truth, you know there's truth also, I think defers in everybody because of their lived experience, and so how they're going to come to truth might be in a different depth than other people because of that lived experience. Like facts are facts. Yet even in the interpretation of facts, um and I think it's there's, I don't. I think the absolute truth is we know there's a life force, we know that the body can only sustain for so long, we know the sun comes up the moon. Yet people, getting to that absolute truth I think it's people want answers, but sometimes we just have to sit in the question and let that exploration be there. That is the answer. Is the exploration of it, the experiencing of it, yeah, and feel safe in that.

Speaker 2: 30:45

And the paradox. Yeah, someone, someone after a teaching at a Lutheran church said to me this is a funny experience. He says you know what I like about Jews? And I was like, oh, this isn't going to be good. And he says y'all have a very high tolerance for paradox and I was like you nailed it. It's 100% who we are and I love it about my faith system and it is something that attracts people to it is this idea that the question is more important than the answer and a good question leads to new questions. I like that Because I think you know to quote my own mentor, you know, as far as heaven and the afterlife goes, no one sent us back a letter. So we really don't know and can't know.

Speaker 1: 31:29

Yeah, we don't. It's just having that exploration within and I think, as you've mentioned, the world you know makes it that every parent is so bad, it really the world will make you feel that you aren't able to trust within yourself, to trust the relationship that's going on internally. There's a lot of things that are filled that you should doubt yourself, not be able to validate your experience.

Speaker 1: 32:00

And so then, how can you have a proper relationship with God, allah, universe, whatever name you call your higher divinity? Because you have to go within yourself. Like I was raised in the Catholic religion and as I would be a disruptor, that's why I have two disruptors I would challenge of why does the priest only get to touch the Bible and we can't touch the Bible? And why do I have to talk through the priest to get to God? Like why don't I have a direct signal to talk to God? Like this isn't making sense for me.

Speaker 2: 32:33

That must have gone very well.

Speaker 1: 32:34

Oh, yes, it got really well. And my mother, she used to be like, would you just stop? Yet it was like I'm thankful, like I had the critical thinking. Yet I went through waves, because you're asking some very profound questions. That you don't challenge these things where it was like this doesn't make sense to me. Um, that I would have to go through all these things Like, so I'm thankful that I asked that, but not everybody has that ability. They just go with the status quo. This is what I've been told, this is what I'm going to follow, and that's all.

Speaker 2: 33:10

Well, I wonder, you know, in terms of art and faith and life, there is a large amount of people, either by training or instinct, who want simple answers. Right, I find that in the consent, when I worked in the music business, there was a lot of music that was consumed, that was very flat. I talk about whole grain, art and whole grain. It was easy to digest. Yeah, and I don't know if that's by training, I don't know if kids get pushed into. Here's the easy answer. There's just a natural human inclination to not want to push too hard at every question. But I think it's part of what leads to extremism now in political and religious systems. Is this one side or the other is offering a much simpler answer than God is complicated. Economic globalization is complicated. Political systems are complicated and we do our best. There's no neat and clean answer, and when politicians or religious figures or teachers offer those neat and clean answer, and when politicians or religious figures or teachers offer those neat and clean answers, they're usually wrong.

Speaker 1: 34:13

Yeah, I've been told that I'm a deep thinker and now people are finally, you know, saying, yeah, you're a deep think. Like, where are you going? Like that's too much for us. Now it's, you know, having the experience and the confidence within myself that it's okay to have deep thoughts, it's okay to have profound, deep questions that won't have an answer right away. It might take a lifetime to really get some of the answers that you're looking for, because you need the life experience to see the profoundness that you get here. But there's even more depths to it, so it has to unfold and evolve.

Speaker 2: 35:08

So this is related but may not seem to be. What are you reading right now?

Speaker 1: 35:13

I'm actually not reading anything right now.

Speaker 2: 35:17

I'm reading a great. I'm enjoying a series of novels that have a lot of deep questions at the heart that I can't quite name.

Speaker 1: 35:25

The reason why I'm not reading is because I'm writing my own book, so I don't want to be influenced on other people's and then possibly plagiarize, or you know.

Speaker 2: 35:36

Are you writing fiction or nonfiction?

Speaker 1: 35:38

No nonfiction, my own story of when I had the experience with the brain lesions and the profoundness with the nervous system and what I've learned internally to offer that space out and it's basically like the simplicity of it is feeling our authentic emotions, where many of us don't even know how to interact with our authentic emotions. And, you know, with this week, these past few months, I've had the language that I could identify helplessness and how we don't know how to feel and be with helplessness and how we don't know how to feel and be with helplessness.

Speaker 1: 36:15

And then these this past month with the hospice and Natalie transitioning really put me into the depths of what that helplessness feels like and how to be with it and not push it away, not numb it, hold space and validate it, yet allow it a space that it no longer controls, so that I could feel the fear, fear, feel the activation of it and I think in our society you know, we talk about emotional intelligence, yet we don't hold enough safe spaces for people to feel their emotions and articulate it almost like we don't give enough time either Constantly scrolling, constantly moving, sitting still, and I think then people become afraid to sit still because they will feel the things the grief, the frustration, the rage, the fear.

Speaker 2: 37:09

It's easier to write to-do lists and scroll than to sit with things that could be scary, and then they start to be less scary and it sounds like both of us have a similar experience with meditation and what I find is it has allowed me to do metacognition, which is the idea that thinking about your thoughts right, literally to say to yourself I don't want to think, I'm not going to think about that now, I'll think about it later, or that's not what I want to think about and I want to work on this problem or to just observe one's thoughts as interesting.

Speaker 1: 37:42

So, yeah, I think that's been great yeah, and you know I'm, I'm one that what I offer and I say to people I've lived it, it's not just out of theory. So this week when my body has been go get busy, go out here, go do this, it was like sit, still, sit down. And it's like no, no, let's just. And I could feel the impulsivity, I could feel the energy and some of the coping mechanisms I used before and it was like no use the tool, sit down and just be, Let your body process out some of the memories and the somatic feelings and rest. You've been on high adrenaline, high alert.

Speaker 1: 38:22

When you are 24-7 with somebody where you're having to watch their breath and look at their rhythm and call for medicine and interact with people and hold space for them and all this it's. There were certain nights this week that I would wake up and still look for her Like I got started your breath and then like, oh, no, this is the reality. And then that download of no, you're in this reality and it's like okay, don't push it away and just breathe through it and allow that regulation. Yet I had to sit in it and I'm one that you know what I'm actually a walking. I'm walking the talk that I'm offering to people. I'm only sharing what my lived experience is so that I can more, in talking to somebody, I can deeply listen, I can listen to the things that aren't said.

Speaker 2: 39:15

Although I think I practice. On my good days I practice 40% of what I preach, so good for you. I feel like I can say so many things more than I can live, and it was often true when I would give sermons that the best sermons were the ones I needed to hear.

Speaker 1: 39:31

So yeah, I'm ensuring that people you know, know it sounds like a lot of stoicism, yet it's like, oh, no, I'm letting vulnerability and if I need to cry or if emotions come up, I'm letting them.

Speaker 1: 39:46

If the anger and rage is coming up, I am articulating it and giving it some expression, not just oh, I have no emotions and everything's just joyful. It's like allowing space to have these emotions and I think people have been saying I'm so strong. Yet I think that the strong that they're seeing is that I can feel my emotions and be transparent and still have a stability to function and hold space and show up, have the courage to lean into the pain, have the courage to lean into the pain, have the courage to lean into the uncertainty and the unknown and have a deep acceptance of reality. I want to ask you this question Because this is what has been challenging me a little bit, challenging me a little bit Do you find that at times, people are using faith to get what they want out of life rather than using faith to develop the tools to show up with the life experiences?

Speaker 2: 40:48

Yeah, yeah, because that's belief. Right, there's the other words. I want to go back to what you said, that I think we don't see this paradox, but vulnerability is strength. That feels very paradoxical and maybe verbally, yeah, and I think another verbal issue is that faith is about trust in meaning and trust in architecture, and trust that the world has value and significance. Belief is a proposition, right, belief is much more about facts and faith is about truth.

Speaker 2: 41:19

To go back to that idea, and I see it, I'm on the ethics committee of our local hospital and you see these very idiosyncratic faith systems, so to speak, or religious systems that don't align with Southern Baptists or Roman Catholics or Shia Islam. They're mix and match. And then people use this as this sort of cage and defense to tell you here's why I'm going to take my loved one off life support, because my faith tells me this. That's just a hodgepodge of beliefs. Yeah, people are doing it all the time. People use faith and religion and belief as a cudgel, as a weapon against each other all the time. It's not what I want to see, but I know what happens.

Speaker 2: 42:03

It is a problem. It's a huge problem, because what you do is you create this wall that you can't surmount, right? If God tells me it's true, then you can't. Who are you to criticize that Santa Claus isn't real? My faith, my belief, is that Santa Claus is real, or that there is cake in the sky for people who behave well. And you, you aren't one to criticize. There's no conversation to be had, and I think that's a real deadening of human discourse, and that's not what I mean. Also, in small measure, I don't know as much about christian scripture, but certainly jewish scripture. Hebrew scripture is full of contradictions and paradox. Right, you can't point to what you could just as easily point to one place that tells you one political outcome as point to the other that tells you almost the opposite. We're always distilling and selecting and curating. Yeah, it's, people are lying to themselves, just to keep it simple.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Yeah, I've seen that a lot. It's just been very profound of how people use prayer and what they're saying and I'm like, are you using faith to try to protect yourself from the pain that might come, rather than ask for the strength and courage to live in the experience? Like, do you really understand the faith of unknown and uncertainty, and trusting that you're, you're cared for in the divinity and that you're not in control of the bigger plan?

Speaker 2: 43:32

That's what faith is right. Faith is an understanding of the powerlessness and the limits of our control. It's not this clear outline of how old the faith is right. Faith is an understanding of the powerlessness and the limits of our control. It's not this clear outline of how old the earth is exactly what Jesus or Moses asked of us. Faith, definitionally, I think and Paul Tillich talks about this is about a surrender to a knowing and a willingness to live in a world of uncertainty and still find it joyful and meaningful.

Speaker 1: 44:02

Yeah for sure. You just defined me where people say that I don't understand how you could have had all these experiences and still see joy, still see the positive in aspects and still hold. You know it's beauty in ashes.

Speaker 1: 44:18

It's really not denying that there's evilness and there's ugliness in the world, yet not allowing that to cloud that there is beauty and love and joy in the world. It's holding both together, that it blends. I want to bring you into a reflective question because I'm mindful of time now and this has been a delightful conversation, so thank you, it has, yes, thanks.

Speaker 1: 44:43

I want to ask you to bring this awareness right now and to go back to your 18 year old self, and you have three words to tell your 18 year old self to carry you to the journey of now.

Speaker 2: 44:57

Can I tell him that he was much better looking than he realized, and he should have enjoyed his body then.

Speaker 1: 45:01

Yes.

Speaker 2: 45:03

That's the big message. How did you think you were overweight? You were so cute. No, okay, sorry. So three words that I would give.

Speaker 1: 45:16

Hey, that could be the message you know.

Speaker 2: 45:19

Well, I think, broader the broader messages. You are loved and lovable, right? Maybe that life is short and yet you have time to do a lot of things. I mean, the best advice I got at that age was a boss who said you can do anything in life but you can't do everything. A boss who said you can do anything in life but you can't do everything. Then all the anxieties I felt will eventually dissipate and you will learn I will learn to manage my anxiety differently. Be careful of things that can become compulsive and I think what you've said you know enjoy the struggle. The struggle is extremely gratifying. I can't put it into single words, but I think I'm saying answering your question.

Speaker 1: 45:57

Yeah, and giving yourself the words needed to reaffirm the choices and the direction and where you are, to be proud of who you are in the experience of just being you, not the accomplishments, not the things that have been gathered, just you in your existence accomplishments, not the things that have been gathered just to you in your existence.

Speaker 2: 46:23

I would say to myself and I had this in a sort of psychedelic and visionary experience that I think you are exactly this to myself, but to all of us you are exactly as God intended you. None of this was a mistake.

Speaker 1: 46:33

It's very profound when people can not just intellectualize it but it drops down into their body to embody, really connect into that. It's like such a release of an imprisonment that they've been in, that they've othered themselves and not felt that love internally and that is um very deep now. I know many listeners now want to know where can I find the rabbi. So could you let them know where they can find you and what things you have to offer?

Speaker 2: 47:07

or now 14. Eclectic Cleric is my online handle, but at almost every one word at Eclectic Cleric, on almost every social media and then you can look at eclecticclericcom. One word, eclecticclericcom. Always. Welcome conversations. There's no commitment, there's no pressure, there's no financial requirement. I do coaching, I do consulting and counseling. Mostly I work with artists, but anyone who has a creative spirit is welcome to reach out and together I think we can help figure out what your creativity means and where it's leading you. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 47:48

Now, out of this dialogue, is there something on your heart that you want to leave with the listeners?

Speaker 2: 47:54

Well, I always think it's important to laugh, so I hope people find laughter today and something to create.

Speaker 1: 48:03

I want to thank you for honoring me with the most valuable gift you could give anybody, and that's your time.

Speaker 2: 48:10

Thank you for your time.

Speaker 1: 48:11

Thank you for sharing that and thank you for this beautiful conversation. It has been very rich and I have gathered a lot from it. So thank you for being you. Thank you, please remember to be kind to yourself.

Speaker 2: 48:27

And you.

Speaker 1: 48:28

Thank you, hey. You made it all the way here. I appreciate you and your time. If you found value in this conversation, please share it out. If there was somebody that popped into your mind, take action and share it out with them. It possibly may not be them that will benefit. It's that they know somebody that will benefit from listening to this conversation. So please take action and share out the podcast. You can find us on social media on facebook, instagram and tiktok under lift oneself, and if you want to inquire about the work that I do and the services that I provide to people, come over on my website, come into a to a discovery call liftoneselfcom. Until next time, please remember to be kind and gentle with yourself. You matter.