I Planned My Death for 10 months: A Therapist’s Story

"What if the smartest part of your brain is the one that learned to hide?"

We start with a grounding practice to meet the body where it is, then sit with therapist and podcast host Malisa Hepner to unpack how the "golden child" mask, complex trauma, and perfectionism can quietly fracture a life—and how she pieced it back together.

In this conversation:

• Trauma as separation from self, not just "bad events"
• Why high achievers often carry hidden hypervigilance
• The spiritual awakening that felt like rewiring in real time
• Planning a suicide date—and the unexpected relief that created space to rebuild
• Launching Emotionally Unavailable podcast imperfectly on purpose
• Hospice lessons on presence when words fail
• The difference between being "healed" and living in ongoing healing

Malisa reframes tears as movement, not weakness. She offers hard-won language for the "fine while drowning" experience. And she proves that emotional availability isn't a badge—it's messy, daily practice.

Connect with Malisa Hepner here: empoweredwithmalisahepner.org

If you've ever felt like you had it together on paper but were quietly unraveling, this conversation offers tools, language, and a kinder map home.

🎧 Listen, share with someone who needs proof that imperfect is the way, and subscribe so we can keep these honest stories alive.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 2:21 Guided Mindful Check-In
• 6:58 Defining Trauma And Its Impact
• 10:06 Golden Child Patterns And Hypervigilance
• 16:45 Healing Vs Healed And Cycles Of Growth
• 20:19 Spiritual Awakening And Rapid Rewiring
• 23:20 Calling To Help And Becoming A Therapist
• 28:05 Hospice Work And Emotional Availability
• 33:04 Creating The Emotionally Unavailable Podcast
• 39:48 Mental Health Crisis And Rebuilding
• 46:10 Advice To The Younger Self
• 48:10 Resources, Workbooks, And Where To Find Melissa

Transcript

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 0:02

Welcome to the Lift One Self Podcast. I'm your host, Nat Nat, and today I have a wonderful guest. And we were chatting and talking before we started recording. I was like, wait, stop. Because the stuff that we were talking about was like really good content that I think many of you guys will benefit from hearing that. So, Melissa, before we start, could you give myself and the listeners a little bit of a brief description of who you are?

Malisa Hepner: 0:30

Hi, I'm Melissa Hettner. Um, I want to make a funny joke about my astrological signs, but I won't. Um man, who am I? I'm a therapist in Oklahoma. I'm also a podcast host of a show called Emotionally Unavailable. I'm actually starting another one too with someone I met through podcasting called Unquiet Soul that um will highlight some of our other parts of our personality too, but be around the same theme. Um, I have three children. I'm married for I think I figured it out this morning. I think it's been 13 years. Um, second husband, and I had this like super crazy extensive history of trauma in childhood. And then because I was the golden child, kind of thought that it didn't have any impact on me. And uh, because you know I wasn't living my pain out loud the way my siblings were, and so then I spent my entire adult life like dealing with the impacts of that trauma without even understanding that that's what was happening, and kind of hit a really severe mental health crisis. Uh the pinnacle of that being in October of 23. And since then, have just been moving the pieces of my life and growing and evolving. Somewhere in there, I had a spiritual awakening, and that was totally uh an amazing experience. Um, and now I just really work on expanding my consciousness and kind of I would say like you know, bringing forth the new earth is my hope. Like that I'm making an impact on people and just showing them that imperfect is the way to go and and you can love yourself exactly how you are. So that's that's that's a very brief version of who I am.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 2:21

So before we dig in, because I have so many places to dig in into that, will you join me in a mindful moment? Absolutely. So, as we were uh discussing beforehand, we are both kind of fatigued. And uh, for me, the seasons changing just does something with my whole body. I think there's a little bit of apprehension that it knows the cold is coming. And I'm also navigating through grief because I'm gonna come up to the one-year anniversary of my friend transitioning um from cancer. So uh because of the work that I do, I can feel that in my body. And so I'm holding space for that. And as I always say, slow and steady. Uh, for the listeners, as you always hear my safety spiel, uh, safety first. So if you need your visual, please don't close your eyes. Yet the other prompts you're able to follow with us. So please take this mindful moment. You know, many of us don't know how important it is to show up for ourselves. So I hope you'll join us. So, Melissa, I'll ask you to get comfortable in your seating. And when and if it's safe to do so, you're gonna gently close your eyes or soften your gaze. And you're gonna bring your awareness to watching your breath. And if you can, you're gonna begin breathing in and out through your nose. You're not gonna try and control your breath, you're just gonna be aware of it, allowing it to guide you into your body. Now there may be some sensations or feelings coming up, and that's okay. You're safe to feel you're safe to let go. Surrender the need to control, release the need to resist me. Drop deeper into your body. Now you may be tangled in some dumb thoughts and to-do list. That's okay. Gently bring your awareness back to your breath. And dropping deeper into the body. Allowing yourself to just be present. And more thoughts may have swooped in gently bringing your awareness back to your breath. Beginning again. Completely surrendering into the body. Maybe noticing some eggs or pain or certain things that you were aware of in your body. Take one big deep breath in. Gently exhale. And at your own time and in at your own pace, you're gonna gently open your eyes while still staying with your breath. How is your heart doing?

Malisa Hepner: 6:06

Good. I feel so relaxed now.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 6:09

Yeah, I uh started introducing these about like over a year ago uh with guests, because I was like, instead of telling people to meditate, let me bring them in what this little check-in can be, and also you know, do the practices with the guest also so that we can not just preach or say what there is, it's actually model it and see what that actually looks like in interactions. Um, let me tell you, uh, the little perfective part or the one that wants to hide didn't really like to do that at first. Oh, I bet. Yeah, like, whoo, how are these people gonna receive this? How are they gonna be? And it's like, you know, let's let's model what that looks like and what how we can show up um for ourselves and do those check-ins. So where do I go? Actually, let me start right here. What does trauma mean to you? What how do you define trauma?

Malisa Hepner: 7:05

Well, um, I would say with my limited brain capacity, um, trauma is just any event that has a lasting impact. I I don't think it has to look a certain way, but if it's something that made you feel really afraid in any way and kind of caused a separation between you and your body, then then it created that space between you and and your true self. And so that's I mean, there's you know, I really had complex trauma where I lived an entire childhood disconnected from myself for protective reasons, uh, and and it was just wrought with you know neglect and abuse. But uh, I don't think it has to be anything like that. I think that people can see a car accident and be traumatized by it and have real lasting impact from that.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 8:08

Yeah. Um, how I describe it is, you know, trauma isn't the actual event. It's how you felt and what you did in process. And then what your nervous system does is, as you said, it's it creates this separation from self and it creates this layer of protection. And a lot of people don't realize, like, oh, well, sometimes they're like, well, I could feel all kinds. I can cry or get angry. And it's like, okay, at least you're better than what other people yet. Did you ever have a space to process and make sense of what those experiences were? Because especially with complex trauma as a child, your little brain that does not have lived experience cannot take in the magnitude of what you've been able to experience. And a lot of times, as you said, emotions didn't feel safe to feel because the caretakers or the adults got activated with that. So it was very unsafe psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. So a lot of times people think trauma is only a physical thing, where it's like, no, a lot of it is like psychological or emotional. Yet it's that separation from self and that journey is coming back home into the body, into self, which is a journey because there's a lot of emotions that come up that you have told yourself and told and your system has said, no, those aren't safe to feel. So let's just keep burying them down. Yet, as we know, um, the body keeps score and emotions are energy, they're messengers trying to tell you stuff that a lot of times sometimes we don't want to hear it because our perfectionist mask is coming up and everything else.

Malisa Hepner: 9:52

Yeah.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 9:54

When you said that you know you were the golden child and you didn't really see that the trauma had impacted you. Was there hypervigilance, was there high achieving in your behavior?

Malisa Hepner: 10:09

So much hypervigilance, so much hypervigilance. I I still don't recognize that in my childhood per se, in the hypervigilance. I mean, I know it was there, but it's I recognize it more in my adulthood, especially because um my first real intimate relationship was in adulthood, and that's where so much of this wounding came out for me in the first time insecurity, uh, jealousy, just some real psycho stuff. Um, so that was definitely present because I was constantly looking for reasons to attack, you know, and so in hindsight, I can certainly see that. I was so separated from myself in childhood that it it's it is hard to identify a lot of things from there. High achieving, it's funny, my my initial instinct is to say no because of comparing myself to other people. But if I was comparing myself to my siblings, then yes. And like I was the first one to uh go to college, uh, one of the only ones, one of a couple, and one of only a few to graduate from high school. So, like in the in this world, yes, I was high achieving, but I graduated high school with like a 1.5 because my little trauma brain was not there for it, you know, and I was allowed, like that was the one thing that like as long as you're passing or whatever, like fine, fine, fine. So because I was allowed the space to not have perfect grades, I didn't have perfect grades, but yeah, I I it was I was what I really understand is I was super motivated by spite, driven by spite, because we were in um a kinship foster care situation. So not only did I have really toxic family members that were saying really bad stuff to us about us, um, but also in you know, I received a lot of really good education through the foster system, but also a lot of statistics of what was likely for me to become, if what, I don't know. But that you know, this is this is a trajectory that children who have experienced what you're experiencing can go on. So I took, you know, what my family, specifically some aunts who were just so determined to really tear me down, and then this education that I received and decided I will prove you all wrong. And that was like my entire being was proving everyone wrong, and I think proving me right a little bit, but it it all came from that place of spite.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 12:55

Thank you for being honest about that, because I'm sure some people will finally be able to give verbiage of what that looks like for them and and how it shows up. And I I just want to bring some tenderness into some of the way that you're perceiving yourself because I do the same thing. It's highly critical that it doesn't meet a certain standard rather than see, like, oh, I did that, and it didn't look properly because probably criticized or critiqued, or again, the comparison trap. Yet seeing like, wow, that was pretty intelligent of what you navigated through and how it showed up and the capacity that you, you know. And a lot of people don't realize too, with trauma, you learn the game. So the education system isn't the best thing to navigate through. So when you said good grades, I'm like, what does that really mean? Right, exactly.

Malisa Hepner: 13:47

I still don't care that I didn't get good grades. Like, what does that mean? I love to tell people I graduated with such a crappy GPA because they just need people to understand. Like, it was funny to notice me being like, no, I wasn't high achieving. Um, and I was like, Oh, I'm gonna have to unpack that one. But like also it it had no determinant upon my success. When I got to a safe place to be able to learn, I went to college and did very well, you know?

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 14:14

Yeah, yeah, I was the same way. Um, I had no interest in high school and everything else. And I used to do those, I don't know what the tests are called in Canada, but to see what your level and intelligence is and get really high marks, and they're like, why is she failing? Like it doesn't these two things. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, oh, are you guys not cluing in that there was unsafety and there wasn't motivation? And you know, it's like okay, but it's same thing. Um, you know, once, you know, college and and going, I actually motherhood activated the motivation for me because I still couldn't find it within myself. It was my firstborn that activated that, that I could feel a sense of worthiness and start to come back into that. Yeah, even though it was outside of myself, it was something that, okay, I don't want certain things repeated for you that I went through. So I'm thankful, even though you know there's still things that got repeated that I'm like, oh my gosh, I should know better. Yet that's how, you know, and that's how the whole the human evolution is. And I think the most important thing is not about not making mistakes, it's about when you see them to be accountable as much as you can, because the more accountability expands your self-awareness and then that there's safety to choose differently to create space for those emotions and um deep ingrained patterns that have been protection that your nervous system has created and really, you know, face and meet that part, um, and all those hidden parts that keep coming up. Because once that's the thing where a lot of people think that there's this arrival, and once I know everything will be so predictable, and I'll I'll know it all like all I certainly thought that I really did, I really did.

Malisa Hepner: 16:06

Well, because we're kind of sold in some way, like you gotta, you just gotta do this, or you need to change your mindset, and so as soon as you start to work on mindset and it uncovers this other stuff, you're like, Man, I'm so messed up. Okay, so whenever I get here or after I work on myself, I I I thought it, I really did. I was I I I remember the day that I arrived at the conclusion, like, oh, there's not a destination. Like we're we're gonna keep on. But that's why, like, I don't really look and say I'm still on a healing journey. I feel like I healed and made peace with things, but I'm going to continue to grow and evolve. And I feel like the energy in those statements are very different, you know?

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 16:54

They are. Uh, for me, um, I always put healing because I think for myself, there isn't a healed part because when those visitors come to knock again, um, say, you know, the sexual trauma or feeling abandoned, when they come to come up, I don't have to push them away. I can open the door and allow them to come in, that they are a part of me and it's not having to be pushed away. And the healing also is for me that as soon as you are coming whole and you're with self, then there's more safety in your body to reveal more things that have been in the shadows. And then that takes that space of, oh, I thought I was oh, and it's like, okay, you came to visit, and boy, where have you been? And just really be with all of that. And especially, you know, when we're doing this, there's layers of depth. It's not about a trajectory of linear and it goes straight. It's that, okay, well, you had this experience and you could relate to it, and then life brings another, and then there's even more depth to it, and you go even further into it, and it's like, yeah, I thought I had this all kind of together. And it's like nope, I'm not sure.

Malisa Hepner: 18:11

And it comes back around and you're like, uh, okay, I'm getting another opportunity for deeper engagement in this. Okay. Like, I there's been uh three different themes of that for me that kind of like are different parts of me. But the first time you learn it is like this major aha, and you're like, oh my gosh, what a paradigm shift! And then I did not know you could have an even deeper understanding of things until the next cycle of the that one thing comes around. And I was like, it's a totally different paradigm shift again. But that's like how all of my spiritual awakening has been is like da-da, and and feeling like a completely different person from like morning to night. Like whenever I first started having all these major aha's, I was getting like three, four a day. And and you know how much it like changes you as a person when you get something that like big to of an understanding about why you've done things and how you can do things in a more productive, loving, compassionate way. Um, to where like I was like, Am I in spiritual psychosis? Because everything was rapidly shifting and I felt a physical unraveling, you know, like things were just being remade within me.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 19:31

Those neural pathways, those neural pathways were actually creating new and it was physically feeling, yeah.

Malisa Hepner: 19:38

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I finally just like actually I was talking to my son who was like 16 or 17 at the time, and I was like, Do you think he's pretty spiritual? It's just like am I in spiritual psychosis? And he was like, No, I think this is a new belief system, and a lot of change has happened in a really short amount of time, and you're just adjusting. So I will just give yourself some slack. And I was like, Okay, thank you. Because he was the only one I felt safe to like say that out loud to, because I really was like, I think I may have lost my mind here. Yeah, I guess in some ways I really did, because I shed so much of the old me in those days.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 20:16

What had you go into therapy and be a therapist?

Malisa Hepner: 20:19

At like four years old, felt the call to be a helper in that way, like uh felt as if I could hear someone saying, like, you're gonna go through some serious stuff, and you're gonna get through it, and then you're gonna share that with others, like how you got through it. And then I had that reconfirmed when I was like 14 years old. I was at school and I saw I th I think it was like Miss Oklahoma or someone doing some motivational speech with some students in the gym, and I just got this like I'll say download where it was like, You're gonna do that one day. Um, like your parents are gonna die, because at this point they'd they were both still alive. Um, you know, you've already been through all this, and your parents are gonna die, and whatever, and you're gonna use all of this, you know, as your magic, and you're gonna help others. Uh, so I kind of always knew I wanted to be a therapist. Um, but I put it on hold for a long time because I did full-time work in hospice as a hospice social worker for a really long time, and then I felt uh moved to work in education for a while to my middle one that I was just talking about. He really just struggled in school and whatever, and I um just felt like kids maybe needed a different type of presence, so I did that. Um, and then I started to pursue being a therapist, but it really wasn't until after my initial like healing started that I felt ready to do that because um oh, truly I had lots of reasons, but what I came to was I didn't want to play act being a therapist, and I was not in any way authentic prior to that, nor was I really aligned, and so it once those pieces really started to move into the right place where I felt really aligned and and at least on the on the journey of authenticity. I mean, I think you know, being seen is still something that is there to struggle with for me, and you know, for lack of a better phrase, but um, I can still see where I am afraid to show up. I do it, but it's still like scary sometimes. Um, but I really wanted the I'm having trouble reaching for this word, but permission to show up exactly how I am and to not try to be anyone different when I'm working with people. And once I felt solidified in that decision that I don't really care what people say, I'm gonna be exactly who I am with therapy clients as I am with my children, with my spouse, with my friends, with my podcast guest, with people I'm talking to on their podcast, I'm gonna be me in every single one of those situations and not really, there really is no division between who I am at home, who I am in this conversation, who I am with friends, like I this is me. And I got to where I really understood that was my magic, and that's that's where I'm the most impactful. And once I gave myself that permission to just go be me, then I felt really comfortable. And you know, like my clients know, like, well, I'm only a couple steps ahead of you on that learning. Like, I'm I and they I learn stuff all the time from like podcast guests or being on someone else's to where I've like yesterday in a session, I was like, Okay, I met this really cool guy. He taught me this thing, da-da-da, let's try it. You know, like I'm not afraid to say I'm still a student, I'm still learning, and it's not my education that that makes me really good at what I do. You know what I mean?

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 24:10

Yeah, and I think, you know, that's a breath of fresh air for a lot of people to hear, especially the professionals, because there is this consensus that you need the accreditation, and then the institute tells you how you have to show up with your clients and you're not, you know, you're being evaluated and this and that. And it's like, well, are you taking into context nervous systems? Are you taking in context with the emotions and what we're feeling with what this person's capacity is? Because a lot if you're really doing therapy, it's a lot of reading that nervous system, really reading the body language, listening to the things that are unsaid. And, you know, mine is a lot of times people emote around me and they feel a sense of being open. So I'm like, I invited to come out and they don't even realize how much they've been carrying inside them. And I always remind them too that the tears don't mean only sadness. It's it's a plethora. Like, you know, when you're happy about something, you cry. When some a baby's born, you cry. Uh, when you something, you cried. So unfortunately, we're so stigmatized around our vulnerability that we only class it as, oh, it's only a dense emotion that shouldn't be seen and it shouldn't be felt because it feels unsafe to reveal that. Yet the more that we can hold that and be safe in being ourselves, like you just said, that's where the magic power is, also. Like I get that all the time of how can you be that way? And you know, backtrack to what you just said, being in the space of hospice, that is warrior work. Because as I mentioned, my friend transitioned in November. She was my mind is going, but I I I want to say nine days, either eight or nine days. Um, that no eating, no drinking, we're just waiting for the body to shut down. And every day the doctors kept saying today has to be the day because this isn't making sense. So I was there 24-7 with her, um, holding her and held her with her last breath. The amount of compassion, the amount of self-awareness you need to have, because let me tell you, some of the nurses that were in that floor don't belong there. And they don't realize the damage that they're doing. However, I think also too, there's not enough tools for nurses and doctors and the professionals in that space to really start taking care of themselves. Right. So that they understand that.

Malisa Hepner: 26:57

That's their protective layer. Yeah, totally. I totally get that. I mean, I I can remember a couple of nurses. So my dad died suddenly of a morphine overdose, but my mom died in a three-week ordeal related to Hepsi and cirrhosis, but it was gory and ugly because when your liver fails, it goes, it's gross. Um, and she had been incarcerated at the time, so there was just a lot of layers there. And I was very early pregnant, like eight weeks pregnant with my first child when she was in the hospital. So I really needed some care. Like to, you know, can you tell me these things a little tenderly? Um, and I can remember, I really more remember the people that that were so soft with me, and they cared so much that her daughter is pregnant, and let's, you know, being careful about not letting me come in until they get her cleaned up because this wouldn't, you know, there's a lot of blood or whatever. Um, and I remember the one nurse who was so impactful who was in the room when she died, and just the way that she dealt with me, and that was my driving force for like I knew I wanted to be in hospice, and then in early undergrad, I took a death, dying, and grief class. I felt so pulled to that, you know what I mean? And I just knew, like, okay, I can't do anything to stop this from happening, but I can help, like, I can I can make it more peaceful or more comfortable for both this patient as their advocate and their family. And so for me, it was easy to get into that space with them. It was actually like at first, my I remember my first death and just being like, okay, but it feels weird to not be the one sitting there holding their hand. And like, I want to make sure like they're they're okay, you know. I had to like learn how to like build some boundaries around that, but it's so much better than the people who came in with like a thousand protective layers. And I've known so many nurses like that, and I know they care about what they're doing, but they just can't go there with people, like not themselves, not themselves, not their family, not their work people, like not somebody who's dying in front of them. They are emotionally unavailable, and that is what that looks like.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 29:23

Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned it emotionally unavailable. What brought the podcast? How did it come about? How long has it been here? And tell me all the details. Was there a muse that came to you? Was it in meditation? Was there a prayer? What brought it? Because it's very well needed because a lot of people don't even know how to give the verbiage of what emotionally unavailable is.

Malisa Hepner: 29:49

Yeah. Well, okay, so I truly I'm a Gemini. I've always wanted to talk. I had wanted to podcast ever since I came across armchair experts. Dak Shepherd, like totally inspired. But um, the name for it came because I thought it was hilarious. But I that was like the beginning of healing for me, even before the mental health crisis, because I'm a person who takes a quiz, like, you know, just like which Gray's anatomy character are you? You know, that kind of thing. And there was a quiz that said, um, are you emotionally unavailable? I take this quiz fully expecting not to be seen as emotionally unavailable. And boom, it says I am. And so I text a social worker friend of mine, and I was like, Do you think you think I'm emotionally unavailable? She's like, Yeah, I do. And I was like, What? I mean, angry, because I have no capacity for this, like none. I opened a huge can of worms with this one little quiz. And I was like, Can you give me an example? Because this is new information for me. And she's like, um, the way you retell your trauma. And I was like, that hurts because I'm funny. Like, I legitimately did not realize it wasn't normal to tell these stories like you're a stand-up comedian. And I kind of had hopes of being a stand-up comedian at some point and using those stories. Like I could not do that now. Yes, some of them are funny and I can tell them funny, but I'm so connected to them in a way that I never was before. Like now there are certain stories that I used to be able to tell with a smile on my face that I can't tell without crying. You know what I mean? So just there, I was so disconnected, and so that was kind of the beginning of learning to try to be more vulnerable, but not understanding what the what the barrier to vulnerability and authenticity really were. Hence the reason I had a mental health crisis. So when I started to like move the pieces of my life, I knew I was quitting a toxic job. And I was like, you know, I've wanted to do this podcast, and I and I wanted to do one with a friend at first because I didn't feel like I was interesting enough to do it by myself. And then I just was like, we're doing it. I'm doing it, I'm doing it. And that was kind of my first step too towards imperfection and being okay with it because I said, perfect is the enemy of good. I like literally repeated that phrase to myself all day, every day, because I didn't want to get wrapped up in all the pre-production stuff. I wanted to start this thing from grassroots and it'd be I I wanted people to see someone do something in a really ugly way and watch it transform, you know, and I have transformed. The people on my show are who saved me, truly. Like I the the information I have received from them, it's still, I mean, literally, I'm learning every week. You know, like I'm such a student, and like I'm getting a lot more comfortable saying, truly, this show is about me. I mean, it's my journey to becoming more emotionally available, honestly. Um, and that looks different with each guest depending on their level of expertise or what they're bringing to my show, you know. I like a wide variety of conversations. Sometimes it's a medium, sometimes it's a therapist, sometimes it's uh whatever, you know. Um, so you know, it's just a different connection point. And I I really in inventorying my life asked, like, what lights me up? And it's connection in this way. And my former life lacked authentic connection. Like I was reliving that cycle that we're all kind of programmed with to connect via talking badly about people, gossiping, complaining. That was the only way I connected, mostly complaining, a lot of gossip. I mean, I was I was just as guilty as anybody else of that. And so that, you know, I'm really comfortable saying like this is kind of the only conversation I want to have. And that makes me a little too much for people from my former life. So I'm, I mean, I would call myself a little bit isolated, but I don't feel, you know, there are times it feels a little lonely or whatever because I don't have anyone aside from like my husband or kids to go do things that I want to do with a girlfriend. You know what I mean? But it's also fine because I like I just make new friends through the internet and we have these kind of conversations, you know what I mean? So that's really that's really the show. I mean, and I have a really good time with it.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 34:26

Yeah. Uh I'm looking forward to being a guest and seeing where our conversation will go in there. So um, and I thank you for, you know, accepting because I sent the message to you and asked if we would do a pod swap. And you, you know, graciously said yeah. And so I'm like, okay, come on, and I will be on yours in a few months. And I really thank you for being vulnerable and doing the alchemy, you know, taking those impurities and turning them into gold, yet not just keeping it for yourself. You're sharing it with others in a world that wants perfection, that wants it to all look together. It's like, what does healing out loud really look like? Not when it's all perfect and in a box, a nice box, like the book that I just wrote, uh, that I have to actually, do you know any editors that are like trauma-informed or possibly okay? Well, we'll get that after the recording. Yet the um the title is called The Gift Wrapped in Sandpaper, Your Untamed Power.

Malisa Hepner: 35:32

Oh, I love this.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 35:33

Yeah, so it's really um understanding that sometimes we have certain life experiences and we don't see it as a gift, yet taking that sandpaper and polishing it off and getting off the edges, then we see the magnitude of the gift. And sometimes there's a gift and it's wrapped around sandpaper and we don't want to touch it because that hurts and it doesn't look pretty, where we don't realize the depths of how powerful that gift is. So um really understanding, you know, the work because when you have been shaped by complex trauma or, you know, trauma, there's a lot of work that goes on. There's a lot of work to relate to yourself, to have compassion for yourself, to bring sensitivity, to bring vulnerability in there and not see it as a threat, but your body reads it as a threat because when you were young, you weren't able to go into those spaces. You were harmed. So automatically it's doing its job of protection and having to do that rewiring and hold yourself accountable and you know, still continue to choose to lean in is like warrior work that I say. I know certain listeners and myself, we heard mental health crisis. What did that look like for you?

Malisa Hepner: 36:55

It looked like me making a plan to end my life because I was just in a really hopeless place. Um, you know, I now understand that I was dealing with a lot of subconscious shame. I was a very reactive person and um really I self-identified as mean. I'm just mean and I don't know how to treat people and I talk to people like crap and whatever. And it was not like everyday strangers, I would freezer fawn in conflict with with other people, but with my family and my close friends. I had a very sharp tongue and it was very it I didn't think before I spoke, it just happened. I was very reactive. Um, but the I I got to where I just felt like my kids were better off without me. I truly believed that because I wasn't perfect, because I wasn't perfect, that's what I understand now, is that I was holding myself, you know, to a fix of perfection, you know, like it was not gonna ever be attained. Um, and so because even then in in making a plan, I was still trying to be considerate. I was like, oh, well, my oldest kid's birthday's in a couple weeks, so that's not cool. And then I was literally going through a calendar trying to pick a date. I was like, then it's Thanksgiving, then it's Christmas, then it's the next kid's birthday, then the next kid's birthday. So I picked a date that ended up being like 10 months away. So within a few days, very quickly, I was like, okay, because the relief that that making the decision that yes, I was going to, setting the plan in motion, having a date, that brought such relief and and quieted the noise just enough to be able to like chill for a couple of days and then get clarity, which is like, okay, if you're going to make it to 10 months from now, something's gotta give. Like, we have to get better if we're even gonna make it to this date. And so as I kind of started doing whatever I could, I mean, I was I was just kind of borrowing information from the internet, basically. And I mean, and and it helped, I mean, it really did. I was I was growing in the way that I could at the time. Um, and like I said, I I had a spiritual awakening during that time too. And so starting to just kind of get different information helped me move pieces, and I was spending time creating in a way that I had didn't even know I had like the capacity for. So I was learning how to get like in a flow state, and those were like the the the little baby coping skills I had to get through that time, and it there was a lot of crying, wailing. Like, even when I started my show, those early episodes, my voice is so raw from like crying so much. Cause like I'd be crying over a tech issue right before, or for a couple of hours before, over a tech issue and something else, because like I just literally had no capacity for any stress. I was just beat down. I I just I it was like I was truly at rock bottom and trying to build, you know, up from there. And so that's kind of that's kind of what I did was just piece by piece built back.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 40:14

Thank you. Thank you for you know the courage. And I want to thank your protective system because to make plans, there was a part that was still advocating for you. Because suicidal ideation, when you're really in a dark place. I had a friend that committed suicide last year and she jumped from her balcony. Uh, she kept telling us, and we, you know, listened and everything else, yet it just overtook her, um, the voices and everything else. So I want to thank that protective system that still had the engagement of still being able to feel the pain because people don't realize a little stressor of something not going right, it feels 10 times worse than somebody that has a very reactive nervous system that has no capacity. It's very painful. It sends off all kinds of signals and shutting down and everything else. So it's like, I don't, you don't want to feel that anymore. Um and a lot of people don't understand what that feels like, especially if they've never had to engage with their nervous system that way. It can be very difficult to hold space for understanding for that because it's invisible.

Malisa Hepner: 41:22

Or even just if no one's ever shown up for them when they needed them to, you know, the way we dismiss others, the way we've been dismissed, because we don't know how to hold space for somebody in general if no one's ever done it for us. Exactly. And so, yeah, it was it was rough.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 41:41

Yeah, it was okay. I'm uh mindful of time. So I want to bring you into a reflective question. I want to ask you to go and take this awareness right now and go back to your 18-year-old self. Okay. What are three words you would tell your 18-year-old self to carry you to the journey of right now?

Malisa Hepner: 42:06

You're always worthy. Nice.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 42:09

Those are powerful ones, very powerful ones. And I'm sure there was parts of you that would have said bullshit um at the time, but still reinforcing the message. Very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. So where can the listeners find you?

Malisa Hepner: 42:26

I'm super active on Instagram at Melissa.hepner. My first name spelled a little weird. M-A-L-I-S-A. My link tree is there for all of the things that I'm doing. I create workbooks. Um, I recently started this a couple of months ago, but I'm releasing a new little instant download workbook every month. And um like the first one was safe to be seen, so that you can start to kind of see parts of yourself and just like, you know, really slide into that authenticity piece, feeling more in alignment. I've got one about perfectionism. Um, this next one releasing is just like uh balance and harmony, things like that. Um, but that's all on my link tree. And um both my Unquiet Soul, the other podcast, is not going to release until October, I think, 7th. But that will be on the Link Tree whenever it does. But there's links to the two major platforms for emotionally unavailable on my Linktree, but you can get it wherever you listen to podcasts. Um, I have my if you're interested in my childhood story, I have a book. I have not promoted this very much at all because I wrote this five years ago, but my book, um, Owning My Crazy, is on Amazon. I did release like a revamped, which just adds just a tiny bit of like recovering from that crisis because I wanted it to be released to a wider market, but truly I only did that because I had published on Amazon only, and people like acted as if I wasn't a valid author because they couldn't find it at Barnes and Noble. So then I felt like I had to like do that. So truly, like, there's no point in buying the revamped version at all. I only did that because I was like not secure enough in myself to be like, and how many books have you published? Okay. So the owning my crazy, the original one, is I like it. I wrote it very much how I talk, and and kind of it's funny, you'll see how stunted I was because like just the limited information I knew about healing at the time was kind of highlighted at the end, but it was just about like my limited understanding of nervous system regulation. But truly, I just wanted a way to share my story. Um, and so that's there. I have some children's books if if uh you know there are any like school counselors listening. I wrote that from a very school counselor perspective. So um I have a journal on Amazon. So yeah, that all of that is on the link tree. But um my website's on there too. So if you want to connect with me one-on-one, that is on the website.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 45:03

So now with our conversation, I'd ask you to go within yourself and feel into what a listener may need to feel empowered and what would that message be for them?

Malisa Hepner: 45:19

I would say that regardless, like it's great when you can see the things that still need attention. Like, and I I hope that you're always going to find some new layer that you need to quote unquote work on or grow through or whatever verbiage you want to use. But don't let that make you forget that who you are right now is perfect, like you're great, you you're already all the things you're trying to become. You we we need to unbecome more than we need to become. So, like, you don't have to strive for a destination, and that is sneaky. Even when we sit here and say there's no destination, I'm sure tomorrow I will find a way where I thought there was a destination again. So take time to really sit and honor who you are and every part of you that got you to where you are right now. They are all magical, and who you are right here, right now is full of all the magic you're ever gonna need. So, you know, I like I just encourage people to just put their hand over their heart and just love themselves and say, Thank you. I love you, you're great. We're doing great because the whole human experience is supposed to be imperfect. So if you are imperfect, you're doing a really good job.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 46:46

I want to thank you for having such an enlightening and wonderful conversation. It was a breath of fresh air of the transparency, the vulnerability, and the lived experience that you have to offer to other people. And like I said, you're doing the alchemy, you've taken those impurities and you've transformed them into gold, and you just didn't keep it for yourself. You're sharing it with others. So thank you for being such a bright light in this world. I am greatly appreciative that we are connected.

Malisa Hepner: 47:18

Me too. And thank you so much for having me. I had such a good time with you.

LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be: 47:22

Please remember to be kind to yourself. Hey, you made it all the way here. I appreciate you and your time. If you found value in this conversation, please share it out. If it was somebody that popped into your mind, take action and share it out with them. It possibly may not be them that will benefit. It's that they know somebody that will benefit from listening to this conversation. So please take action and share out the podcast. You can find us on social media, on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok under LiveOneself. And if you want to inquire about the work that I do and the services that I provide to people, come over on my website. Come into a discovery call lived oneself.com. Until next time, please remember to be kind and handle with yourself.